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[CKSMOM]

If a woman praying or prophesying with head uncovered dishonors her head (her husband), how does that relate to only veiling during a "public" worship versus at home?  Would she be dishonoring her husband if she was praying uncovered at home if there was no one else there but her and her husband and family?

[JeffAngie]

Does anyone have anything  more to say on this subject?  Please give more details.

[hollyolly123]

Personally, we found it too complicated to work that all out.  I just wear mine most of the time, but if my hair is drying or I'm sleeping, or whatever I don't worry about it.  I'll just throw one over my head if I really need to beseach God about something if I'm not wearing one.

There's a verse in there that says "because of the Angels," who may be there even when we're at home just with our husbands.  That's just our take on it.  When I first started covering my hair, dh wanted all hairs covered during most of the day and always in public (not in the bedroom though).  He's chilled out on that some now.

Another question to ask would be, does your husband feel dishonored?  I asked my man out of genuine concern what he thought about all this.  I told him it was making me nervous and I'd really appreciate if he would study it and tell me what he finds.  He took me seriously, and I think he felt very manly because I went to him as though he actually had the answer.  I had read something from www.bible-researcher.com (or net, or something)  that was similar to the things that Gabe wrote, and I asked him if he thought it was biblical or not. 

Dh took his time and did that for me, and came to the conclusion I should cover my hair.  Perhapse you could tell him you saw Gabe's post and you'r a little unsure what to think, and ask him the specifics and to critique Gabe's teaching.  Let him decide.

[Beth]

I have a question. If a woman should wake up and pray in the night should she be covered? We've attended a church that believes in women covering their heads for about 5 years now. My husband came to believe in women covering by the passage in Numbers. He just couldn't put it all together until he "stumbled" across that passage. I guess the reason I'm asking is he doesn't seem to have an answer for that question. He said he just doesn't know.  Any thoughts?

[hi_itsgwen]

I'm not a scholar, and I have not studied this...unless you count reading the Bible discussion thread on this topic.  My husband has also not studied this topic, and does not ask me to wear a literal covering, though I would have no problem doing so if he asked me to. 

In the Bible Study thread on this topic, Gabe's first post mentions that in v.4, Paul isn't talking about hair.  So naturally, I was wondering what it did refer to.

In reading the scriptures, a thought occurred to me.  Could the subject of a man having his head covered refer to a son who is still under his Father's rule/household?  Could the term head covering refer to being under authority (legally)?

This occurred to me when I was pondering Paul's comparison of a woman being shaved...I had heard that a shaven woman was a sign that a woman was a prostitute (not under the authority of a man).  Paul is quite the word smith, and I wonder if he was saying that a woman is dishonoring herself (her own literal head) by praying or teaching publicly without the authority of a man over her.

Could Paul be outlining the accepted chain of command for prophesying and praying publicly?  (Thus only allowing men who were the head of their own households, and women who were under the authority of their husbands to pray and prophesy publicly.)  If a man prays or prophesies and isn't the authority in his home, then he is taking the honour away from his father (or dishonouring his head).

Paul is writing this to the Church of Corinth, which was a culture steeped in paganism.  Paul's culture was a very structured, with a clear cut legal system that was structured around the authority of a father to pass the birthright to the eldest son.  They literally transferred their posessions, land, and even the responsibility of caring for the slaves and women in this transaction.  It wasn't taken lightly, and the scriptures that I've seen on this, it was done as close to the death as possible.  (Jesus passing along authority over his mother while on the cross comes to mind as well.)

It's my tentative opinion that this is the essence of what Paul is saying:
"God is Christ's authority, Christ is the Man's authority.  Man is created in the image of God.  Just like God doesn't have an authority over him, so also, a man should be in a position of authority (over his own household) if he is going to pray or prophesy.  But a woman is given to man and should be under the authority of a man if she is to pray or prophesy."   
Side Note:   I was curious about the term 'because of the angels' as well.   In a recent study on Revelation, our teacher pointed out that in Rev. 1:20, when Christ is telling John the meaning of the stars in his right hand, the greek is 'aggelos'.  This is often translated 'angel', lit. meaning heavenly messengers of God.  However, the same term is used to describe John the Baptist (Mat. 11:10).  So the word may also be used to mean a messenger divinely sent by God.  It may be a stretch, but it could also mean a message divinely sent by God (as in the burning bush...this term is also used there).  So Paul could be saying  'A woman should have authority on her head because of this divinely sent message.'
Here is a post I found that gives some other references for that specific term: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/archives/greek-1/msg00102.html

Just some of my thoughts...I'd love to see more discussion of this!

[hi_itsgwen]

I have read the entire thread of this topic as of this post, and the three possible interpretations given of what Paul meant by 'head covering' as listed in this post:http://www.7xsunday.net/forum/index.php/topic,16391.msg159571.html#msg159571

1) Long hair is the covering that should be worn by women to show they are under their husband's authority
2) Something worn over long hair is the covering that should be worn by women to show they are under their husband's authority
3) Anything a husband wants to so designate (I've seen dresses, wedding rings, and femine attire in general so designated) is the covering that should be worn by women to show they are under their husband's authority

Is is possible that Paul is saying that men who are under the authority of another man (such as a slave, servant, or son under his father's authority) should not pray or prophesy in public, and that a woman who is not under the authority of a man should also not pray or prophesy in public because of the order that God set up in nature? 

Would Paul's audience have understood him to be giving directions on hair style and clothing choices here, or tiers of natural authority?

Could Paul be using the well known examples of a literal veil or head covering and literal hair on the head as a symbolic representation of authority? 

I'd like to see more on this.  In my studies, the term 'covering' and 'head' can be used to mean a symbolic covering of authority instead of a literal piece of cloth or hair.  (See Sarah and Abimilech story in Gen. 20)   The literal interpretations (hair=covering and cloth=covering) don't seem to mesh with the passage as a whole. 

[Beth]

  We've been discussing this issue lately in light of the headcovering thread. While my husband believes that a physical covering is symbolic of the authority a woman is to be under just as shaving her head would be symbolic of a woman openly declaring she is not under his authority. So he feels strongly that both the headship(authority) and an actual covering are spoken of in both the Numbers passage and 1 Cor 11. 
But what he doesn't understand and would like some opinions on would be 1 cor 11:10 for this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.
What does that mean? Why did Paul switch from the word covered to power here? What do the angels have to do with it? 

[IMPersuadd]

I have heard taught/preached that the reference to angels here is somehow tied to Genesis 6:1-4 (w/cross references to Job 1:6, 2:1, & 38:7 and Jude 6) and therefore women are at risk of a danger from them if they are not covered (be it spiritually and/or physically).  However since I am not a man and the men are supposed to answers these questions - perhaps this is enough info for them to study and present a thorough answer to that question.  :-)

[Whiterock]

What do the angels have to do with prayer and prophecy (what is their "role" in our prayers, etc.)? Maybe since the topic is praying and prophesying there is an answer in that.

WR

[Oh, my. I can visit an old post of mine three or four times and still find mistakes!     ]

[Gabriel Anast]

What do the angels have to do with prayer and prophecy (what is there "roll" in our prayers, etc.)? Maybe since the topic is praying and prophesying there is an answer in that.

WR

Yeah... this is interesting... I am thinking about this (now that you have brought it up) and the term "power"... I will post more when I have studied it a bit.

--gabe

[hollyolly123]

This is in response to the story Gabe told about Rebekah letting her hair down.  Just wondering out loud.  Could it have been more of her asserting that she's Gabe's in the best way she knew how (following her understanding of the "covering" according to her Father at that particular time in her life), rather than the actual hair? 

Like, if someone doesn't know that there is power in covering her hair, IMO, God's not going to refuse to protect her on a technicality.  Just my unstudied thoughts.

[girly]

This is in response to the story Gabe told about Rebekah letting her hair down.  Just wondering out loud.  Could it have been more of her asserting that she's Gabe's in the best way she knew how (following her understanding of the "covering" according to her Father at that particular time in her life), rather than the actual hair? 

Like, if someone doesn't know that there is power in covering her hair, IMO, God's not going to refuse to protect her on a technicality.  Just my unstudied thoughts.

I'm new here but I don't see that story?  What am I missing?  This forum structure is very different for me and I find myself becoming frequently confused by references to things I can't see

[SC lady]

This is in response to the story Gabe told about Rebekah letting her hair down.  Just wondering out loud.  Could it have been more of her asserting that she's Gabe's in the best way she knew how (following her understanding of the "covering" according to her Father at that particular time in her life), rather than the actual hair? 

Like, if someone doesn't know that there is power in covering her hair, IMO, God's not going to refuse to protect her on a technicality.  Just my unstudied thoughts.

I'm new here but I don't see that story?  What am I missing?  This forum structure is very different for me and I find myself becoming frequently confused by references to things I can't see

Yes, our format is different. On the Bible Questions (THIS) Board, are located questions that are discussed over on the Bible Discussion Board (located here: http://www.7xsunday.net/forum/index.php/board,168.0.html).

The above comment is referring to the discussion that exists to answer questions on this thread. You can read it here: http://www.7xsunday.net/forum/index.php/topic,16391.msg196808.html#msg196808

If you would like more information on Bible Question Threads, you can read the guidelines here: http://www.7xsunday.net/forum/index.php/topic,10733.0.html

Generally, a search of the Bible Discussion Board will show threads that exist in response to the Bible Questions located on this board. 

~SC Lady

[girly]

SC,

Thanks for explaining that.  I don't fully understand the format but I'm hopeful I'll figure it out.  I'll read those guidelines when I have some time.

[Beth]

 So what does the word power mean anyway? Does it actually mean a physical(spiritual) power?  If I understand what some of you are saying, then you believe that a woman with a covered head would have spiritual protection (power). Or would you be saying she would have more power in her prayers?
I read or remember hearing somewhere that the angels have 4 wings and two of them would be for covering their faces (or maybe heads) in the presense of God. I wonder if that has anything to do with "because of the angels"? 
   wasn't Lucifers job in heaven to cover the throne of God? Just rambling. Sorry.

[Timothy]

I am also interested in the power on her head because of the angels question. I would be interested in Gabe's study. Looking forward to seeing that.

[khix]

So, the hair part that Paul talks about at the end of the passage - he is using hair as an analogy then? 

[Beth]

Bumping this we're still interested in the "because of the angels". We were talking to a friend the other day and he said "you know the way that is written it really seems like we should know what that means. Like when Paul wrote it he expected his readers to just know what that meant. But...we don't.

[denim&lace]

Listen to Angels Good and Bad by Michael Pearl...
he makes it seem like we should have known too, the same way Paul did...

[Beth]

Yes, angels good and bad was fascinating. Should listen to it again. But it still doesn't answer the question. Why" because of the angels"? What does wearing a covering have to do with the angels?  My husband wonders if it has something to do with symbolism. He also had a dream recently about angels. (Maybe he'll post it on the dream thread.) but the main point to him was that the angels are around us all the time always watching. He woke up thinking "it makes perfect sense" but in the morning it didn't seem to make as much sense. So anyway...

[rejoicing]

I've taken a bit to go through all the topics posted on here about this subject, and it seems very overwhelming. So much disagreement? 
As wives, can't we just follow our head, and do as our hubands feel we should do?    Since there is so much disagreement on this topic, it stands to reason that there are going to be husbands that feel differently from one another.  If we as wives are to follow what Gabe or any of the other men on this board feel these passages mean, aren't we just guilty of dishonoring our husbands?

[SC lady]

I've taken a bit to go through all the topics posted on here about this subject, and it seems very overwhelming. So much disagreement? 
As wives, can't we just follow our head, and do as our hubands feel we should do?    Since there is so much disagreement on this topic, it stands to reason that there are going to be husbands that feel differently from one another.  If we as wives are to follow what Gabe or any of the other men on this board feel these passages mean, aren't we just guilty of dishonoring our husbands?

Good question, rejoicing. This is where the design of the forum comes into play.

Regarding how each wife should live out these teachings, the Sarah's Daughters board exists for the purpose of encouraging each wife to learn from and follow her husband and carry out his directives/wishes/instructions:
Head Covering and women's hair
Sarah's Daughters  Rules of the Forum

The Bible Question Board (the one we are on now) exists for the purpose of ALL members asking questions about the Bible says about _______. The answers to those questions are then discussed on the Bible Discussion Board by qualified men. About the Bible Discussion Board.

So, the question of whether or not a woman should follow her husband in this matter is not into play on this board. [Edit to add: It is a given/understood] This (the Bible Questions) board exists for members to post their questions about what the Scripture says and the resulting discussions are what you see here:
Covering Glory -- for safety's sake!
and here:
Head Covering: What is it?

Hope that helps clarify matters. 
SC Lady, Moderator

[rejoicing]

Ah, gotcha, thanks...makes sense. I'm still kinda learning my way around here.

[andiclare]

What do the angels have to do with prayer and prophecy (what is their "role" in our prayers, etc.)? Maybe since the topic is praying and prophesying there is an answer in that.

This is an old topic but one very dear to my heart. For the record I do cover my head in church and I think I'm going to start covering when praying as well. I've been pondering the "because of the angels" thing for a long time now.

Here's the thought that occurs to me in response to WR's question as to what angels have to do with our prayers: There's a passage in Revelations that speaks about angels taking the prayers of the saints to God's throne in Heaven. Could there be link there?

Here's the verse, Rev 8:3-4-- And another angel came and stood before the altar, having a golden censer: and there was given to him much incense, that he should offer of the prayers of all saints, upon the golden altar which is before the throne of God.  And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints ascended up before God from the hand of the angel

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