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brother dan
Learning
Posts: 23
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« on: May 03, 2008, 06:20:22 AM » |
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My friend and I have been on the streets of a Dutch Reformed town on Saturdays, witnessing and passing out tracts, for quite awhile now. He used to be a 5 point hyper Calvinist himself and now has a real passion for winning the lost religious people in his community.
Here is a tract that he put together in a moment of passion. He debates the doctrine of predestination and total depravity.
Let me know what you think? Feel free to point out mistakes that we haven't caught yet as well.
Some questions that demand an answer.
Did God preordain everything? If so, can it be denied that everything that is ever thought, said, or done by human beings, really was preordained to be thought, said, and done by God? Did God create Adam and Eve as individual persons in His own image with mind, will, and emotions, or were they robots or puppets? If God preordained everything that was going to come to pass, then the image of God in man, and mind, will, and emotions, have nothing to do with anything that happens, or do they? If God preordained everything, then there is no such thing as anyone doing anything at any time, ever, only God! There is no need for anyone to try to think, do, or say anything in particular, one will always be thinking, saying, and doing all that he was preordained to think, say, and do! Besides, everything God does is good and should therefore be desirable. Shouldn’t we be obedient to God and simply submit to the preordained order of events? Maybe it is time to realize that we are living out a master grand scheme of irrelevance!? It doesn’t matter, nothing you or I do could alter what God has predetermined?!
But wait a minute, what about sin? What about murder, rape, child molestation, homosexuality, and so on…? Did God preordain all that? If you believe that God preordained everything would you be able to deny that God did preordain murder, rape, child molestation, homosexuality, and so on…? If God preordained everything would you deny that God is the Author of sin? What about God’s Holiness? Is God really Holy? Or is God a sinner? The only one!? But who is responsible then? Is God just pushing the blame on someone else? What about Satan’s rebellion? If preordained, then wouldn’t God be worse then Satan? Doesn’t your stomach turn at the very thought of it? Sorry, but if God preordains everything then this is the conclusion that we would have to come to!
If you do NOT believe that God preordains everything, then is it not time to realize that Adam was actually created as an individual person with mind, free will, and emotions? You say, but I have believed that my whole life already. Good, but do you realize that that implies that God sovereignly decided to create persons that could make choices that were NOT made by Himself? Do you realize that man was given some unbelievable attributes like unto God’s attributes? Like the power of CHOICE? That God sovereignly chose to create man with choice and by doing so did not lose His sovereignty? Realize this as well, since man was created in the image of God with the capability to understand right and wrong, and to act upon that understanding, man’s choices have moral implications! That they would be either right or wrong?
You may say, of course I understand that. But do you understand that Adam and Eve were actually able to make wrong choices the VERY WAY God created them? Without any sin present in their created nature? In theological terms: without a “sinful nature”? Do you realize that sin is not only not a result of preordination, it is also not a result of something sinful in our nature? That sin is possible with a good nature? Do you not clearly see that sin does not lie in our nature itself, but that sin lies in the wrong use of our nature?
You say, ok, but when Adam sinned by choice, his nature was changed to a sinful nature. Do you have any Biblical proof for that, or is that something you heard a preacher say? But let me ask: what is a sinful nature? Any Biblical definitions? And how did human nature change? Did sin change our nature? Could an act that was possible by nature, change nature? Does nature get changed when sin occurs? Does sin recreate human nature different from the way God created it? If the first sin actually changed human nature into a ‘sinful nature’, rendering it incapable of doing any thing but sin, and sin would become a necessity rather than choice…, the question would arise; who created nature like that? Do you mean to tell me that God created nature in such a way that after Adam and Eve chose to be disobedient once, that all future choices would be sinful by reason of a sinful nature caused by their first sin? Not only that, but this ‘sinful nature’ is passed on to all his posterity so that Adam’s children can only make sinful choices? What did God do when He created nature like that? And Why? Or, did God directly recreate Adam’s nature? Did God change nature…make it sinful? And are people really responsible for their “sinful nature” inherited through Adam? Are they really to blame for the choices forced upon them by their ‘sinful nature’ and God’s preordination?! If God did what the babies deserve from the time they are born, would He throw them in the lake of fire to suffer forever and laugh at their calamity? Nobody honestly believes something this ridiculous, or do they?
But why do all people sin? Doesn’t the Bible say in Revelation 12:9: “And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.”? Adam being in perfect relationship with God, sinless, created upright, NO sinful nature, CHOOSES to disobey God! Adam sins WITHOUT a sinful nature! We do not desperately need to find a cause for sin, because we already know that it comes from CHOICE and has nothing to do with a sinful nature! All of Adam’s descendants are born into the kingdom of Satan who is the deceiver and god of this world. God does not rule over evil. He turned Himself away from it.
If Adam being in fellowship with God, without a sinful nature, still turned everything over to Satan, then how great a state of depravity are his descendants born in. First of all they do not have the necessary relationship with God that they need to make good choices, secondly they are born into Satan’s kingdom, and lastly, they are still in a body of flesh, including those (none sinful) drives, which were the source of temptation that led Adam and Eve into sin in the first place?
Yes, the human race is destined to go lost, and has. But God has done ALL that is needed to reconcile us back to Himself! He took our punishment Himself, after He was revealed in the flesh. GOD did provide! He decided to open up a way, He decided to become a man, to live righteous, to die on a cross and to be raised again from the dead in order to provide atonement and eternal life! He decided to write His Holy Word, so that faith may come through hearing of the Word of God. He decided to send His Holy Spirit into the world to convince men of sin, because they believe not on Him. He also decided that the gift of God is to be received through faith alone!
His offer of salvation by faith, that requires a response on the sinners part does not change or force God any more then it did when He created man with free choice in the first place! It does not change or force God any more then it did when Adam took His God given power of choice and disobeyed God in the garden and ate from the tree! If God wasn’t changed or forced when man made a negative choice, why would God be changed or forced if man made a positive choice to receive Jesus Christ as his Saviour?.... something that is so obviously commanded, demanded and commended in the Word of God? To believe on God is not making God save you, it is merely receiving what He has done for you! To believe is not “working” for your salvation, it is trusting in His work for you! Believing is not a work! Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. It is understood that no one apart from the Holy Spirit convicting, calling and drawing him, is ever going to believe the Gospel! But God has clearly stated in his word that He will draw, convict and enlighten every man in the world;
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Joh 12:33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.
Joh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
Joh 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Joh 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
Joh 1:7 The same(John) came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light,(Jesus) that all men through him might believe.
Joh 1:8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
Joh 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
When conviction is present, either in a Church service or when reading the Word of God for yourself, or even when you are reading this article, you MUST respond and believe! Every man that is saved by Jesus Christ will attribute the whole of his conversion on God and God alone, but God has conditioned forgiveness on repentance and faith in His promise. The promise of eternal life through Jesus Christ.
Moses writes in Deuteronomy 30:
“If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul. For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it. See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; ………I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:”
The apostle Paul quotes from this very passage!:
Romans 10:5-9: “For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:) Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.”
Truth does not need to be policed and guarded over. If you cannot, through scripture and sound reason prove what you believe, then it is not worth holding on to. We are open to discussing all the things that are spoken of in this tract and are not afraid of truth. Please feel free to contact us, with questions, challenges, or corrections.
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