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[khix]

What are the rules of....well, rules?  Specifically, household rules.

Are rules to ALWAYS be followed?  Or can they sometimes be broken without consequence?  You know, throw the rules out the window for tonight - we are having fun,  and that's that!   Is that ok for the kids?  Or does this teach them to see if they can get out of following the rules all the time?

[Dixiemom]

I think it is important to know what kind of rule you are refering to.  In our family, we have two basic types of rules.  We have rules that are not our rules, but are instead based on what the Bible teaches.  Then, we also have family rules to help our household run smoothly.  We attempt to follow the rules based on Biblical teaching 100% of the time.  We all fail at that, but that is our goal.

However, the household rules are different.  They are in place to make our home more enjoyable, not less enjoyable.  So, even though we have a rule for "no bouncing on the bed", we have occasional family pillow fights.  Technically, we are violating our own rules.  But, our children know that if mommy and daddy say that it is okay, than they can do it at that moment.  They also know that it doesn't mean that they can from now on, forever more, jump on the bed.  They also know that it is not a sin for us allow them to jump on the bed.  That is just a rule that we have to keep them and our furniture safe.  So, if we set that rule aside for the night, no harm is done.

We would not set aside the rules for lying.  Or stealing.  Or other rules based on the scriptures.

I love having fun with my family too.  Those times are special.  But, I would be a little careful about saying "No rules tonight!  We are just going to have fun!" because rules are really there to help them.  Also, they may not understand that some rules (like "don't backtalk your parents" ) are still in effect.  I would be a little more specific.  Like, "tonight, we are all going to jump on the bed and have fun!"  That way, they know what is okay. 

I hope that this made sense!   Have fun!

[khix]

Just talking about simple household rules, like bedtime or how many snacks are allowed, or how many video games are allowed, etc, etc.  I tend to hold fast to all rules at all times, but my dh is definitely more lenient & likes to throw rules out the window sometimes!  Me, I worry about what this teaches the kids....but I think I may be the official kill-joy around here!  I need to learn to have more fun!   

 

[khix]

This next question is sort of related to this, so I'm posting it here instead of starting a new thread.

Anyway, something happened again last evening that I've been wondering about.  It's something that happens fairly often, I guess, with different kids at different times, with a myriad of issues.  Usually, it's not those hard & fast rules that can't be broken, but it's just decisions that get made at the spur of the moment.

Here is what happened:

All dc eat dinner except 9yo ds.  I had made some new things, & in addition to that, we were eating up some leftovers.  This ds did not like anything available, so he refused to eat.

 OK, I said, you won't be getting anything else the rest of the evening - you'll be going to bed hungry.  Consequence fitting the crime.  DH was right there eating too, and agreed with consequence (at least, he seemed to).  This ds did not get any other punishments...he was allowed to go outside & play after dinner, and then watch Veggietales later, etc.

After the kids came back from playing outside, it was snack/desert time (now, in our house, the rule is if you finish all your meal, you can have 2 snacks/desserts....if you eat part of your meal, you can have 1.....and if you eat nothing, you get nothing....however, that rule is not always followed....by dh....who made up the rule).

All 3 kids but 9yo ds get ice cream.  This ds really, really wanted ice cream & was crying about it.  I reminded him of the rule (also, at this time, dh was in shower).  Then, I said, OK - if you eat one french fry (one of the new things I had made last night....yes, this ds is so picky, that he'll only eat regular fast food fries....he won't eat curly fries, which is what I had made), you can have ice cream.

(Question #1 - did I relent/give in?)  I gave him one small french fry, about an inch long.  I told him again that he had to put the whole thing in his mouth.  What did he do?  He only nibbled a tiny bite off, and said he didn't like it.  I said again, No, you have to put the whole thing in your mouth.  But, ds kept on insisting that "I tried it!"  and "I don't like it!"  I told him that he doesn't have to like something to eat it.

I stood my ground...he would NOT be getting ice cream if he did not put the whole fry in his mouth.  We "battled" for about 10 minutes....he sat there with fry in hand, crying, and contemplating whether or not he wanted ice cream bad enough to eat the fry, or to give up on ice cream & just throw fry away.  He also kept saying that I said he just had to try it.

I pointed out that he was lying, and every time he lied, I took a check mark off his chart (he lied about 4 times).  After about 10 minutes of this (and I think at this time, ds was starting to consider eating the whole fry...if I had been able to last it out with him, he would have complied & gotten his ice cream), dh comes into kitchen, hears the commotion, sees ds crying with fry in hand, tells him to throw fry away & get another one.  Ds throws fry away, but won't get another one.

I proceed to tell dh what has happened, what I told ds to do, what I promised if he did do it, and why he's crying, and that he's not getting ice cream because he only tried the fry....he didn't follow my instructions exactly.

Ds also lied again & said that I said he only had to try it.  DH says it's ok that he only tried it & that he should have ice cream.

(Question #2 - what should I have done at this point?)  We have an argument about that.  My feeling is that this is teaching the kids that they don't have to obey me, that if they hold out long enough, they will get their way when daddy comes home or into the room. 

Anyway, Dh gives ds ice cream.  This is what I call "giving in" & it's teaching the kids that they don't have to follow rules (whether the hard & fast ones, or the instructions given at the spur of the moment).  (also, dh gives in often, usually just to get the crying/whining/arguing to stop)

What should I have done?  How should I have handled it?  Call or run to dh every time a decision has to be made or an instruction is to be given?  I can't make spur of the moment decisions on my own?  And expect my kids to follow through or obey them?  What kind of message does it send to kids if dh "overrules" me most of the time, if not every time?  Is it better for me to stand my ground?  Or is it better for me to comply with dh when he comes in & changes the instruction?  Maybe I should just say, "I don't know - go ask your father" all the time?  What about the times dh is not home?  (and they still don't listen to me then....the kids will say, "I'm gonna tell daddy when he gets home")

Ugh, as you can see, I have problems!  I try to be firm & consistent & not give in, but dh seems to mess it up.  What do I do?  I don't want to blame dh or anyone else for my poor parenting skills and for my disrespectful/disobeying kids...I want to take responsibility and take action, but I feel like I'm running into a brick wall....

I do sometimes feel that dh is a big reason why kids don't respect/obey me.  How do I get rid of the blame?  I know blame is wrong!  How do I get kids to respect/obey me without running to dh all the time?  How do I handle a situation like this, should it arise again?  (and I'm sure it will)

Also, I want to point out, that the hard & fast rules that dh has made up, I follow those!  Out of respect for dh's leadership, I follow those & kids know it.  It's the every day, spur of the moment decisions/instructions that's the issue here.  And what's weird, is that the rules that dh made up, the ones I follow, a lot of the time, DH will not follow through on his own rules!  Why is that?

And then sometimes he gets mad at me that I'm following the rule he made up, and he will let dc get away with not following the rule, and I'm made out to be the bad guy because I was trying to enforce HIS rule.

What do I do?  Live as though there are no rules?  I'm trying to follow/respect dh, but it's hard when he's so inconsistent.  The only thing consistent about him is that he's inconsistent!  Am I not supposed to enforce any rules?  Do I let dh handle every decision & infraction?  If so, how is this played out when dh is not home?  Do I wait until dh gets home and bombard him with questions & discipline issues?

Somehow, that doesn't seem right.  What do I do then?  It does seem that dh gets mad at me no matter how I handle things, so maybe I should just stop handling things altogether?

But, that's confusing, because I KNOW he doesn't want to be bothered with these issues, especially after coming home from work.  He wants well-behaved kids, who don't whine, fuss, cry, or argue, & who obey...but he doesn't want to be bothered with issues/rules, and he doesn't want me enforcing rules, because that brings on whining & crying...or if it gets bad, it brings on my yelling....he doesn't want me using the rod (so I try to make punishment fit crime...but again, that brings on a reaction from kids that makes me look a bad guy)....How do I achieve all this?

[SC lady]

The FIRST thing that caught my attention is the fact that a 9 year old boy is crying because he didn't get his way. 

It appears that he has become adept at negotiating and using emotions to get his own way.
In reading over all of the conditions for ice cream, I became confused myself. I'd need a lawyer to determine how many tastes constituted an actual bite and then how many bites became a portion, etc.

I think you'll have to risk becoming an unpopular parent for things to change much -- at least initially. . . 

But that will take some hard commitment and willingness to follow through and correct at the point of attitude, rather than waiting for things to escalate until dh steps in to quiet things down. . .

Don't have time for lots of practical suggestions right now, but I'm sure the other ladies will have much for you to consider. 

[rainygladness]

If you have No Greater Joy Vol 3, Michael Pearl addresses the problems you described really well on page 44.  If you don't own the book you can read it here:  http://www.nogreaterjoy.org/articles/general-view/archive/1999/may/01/the-parental-root/

HTH

[khix]

It appears that he has become adept at negotiating and using emotions to get his own way.
In reading over all of the conditions for ice cream, I became confused myself. I'd need a lawyer to determine how many tastes constituted an actual bite and then how many bites became a portion, etc.

I think you'll have to risk becoming an unpopular parent for things to change much -- at least initially. . . 

But that will take some hard commitment and willingness to follow through and correct at the point of attitude, rather than waiting for things to escalate until dh steps in to quiet things down. . .

Yes, he has become adept at negotiating & using his emotions, as well as 2 of my other children.

I would say that up until 2 years ago or so, I would also be guilty of negotiating with the kids & giving in & waiting until things escalated before I did something.  I don't do that anymore....at least, I don't think I do.  I don't give in anymore.

I try to make things clear.  How hard is it to understand that if you don't eat anything, you don't get any snacks or desserts?  How hard is it to understand that if you put the whole french fry in your mouth, I will let you have ice cream?

I guess the confusion comes when my dh comes & says that a nibble counts as a bite....when I CLEARLY told my ds that he had to put the whole thing in his mouth.  But, again, these things happen not only with food, but with everything.  I make a decision or give an instruction, etc.  The kids put up a big fuss.  I don't negotiate, I stand my ground, I don't give in.  I'm not "soft".  I have no problem with letting a kid NOT get their way....I have no problem whatsoever with being "unpopular".

But, then dh comes in, and basically "overrules" me (and I guess he has the right to, correct?) because he sees the kids putting up a big fuss & automatically assumes I must be the bad guy because I'm making or letting the kid cry.  He just doesn't understand that the child is throwing a fit...or maybe he does understand, but just wants the child to stop throwing a fit?   Or maybe he wants to be "popular"?  Or maybe it's the fact that dh & I have totally different....standards, I guess you could say.

I know what dh's standards are on the big things, and I follow them...but with everyday little decisions, aren't I allowed to make those decisions?  Do I need to consult dh with everything?  I KNOW for a fact that dh just wants me to handle things, get things done, without asking him tons of questions (he hates questions!), but it seems when I do handle it, he eventually steps in & reverses it....and I see it as teaching the kids that they don't have to listen/respect/obey me.

Am I taking it too personally?  Should I just cheerfully go along with dh reversing my decision?  What kind of message does that send to the kids - about rules, about mom's authority, about dh's authority?

If I did something wrong, can you point out exactly what it was?  I'm slow at realizing things!  What should I have done with DS that would have resulted in:

1) ds choosing to comply or not comply, but either with a good attitude?
2) made dh not be upset & overrule, but be pleased with the way it was handled?

Rainygladness, could I be trying to be controlling, as that article says?   

Also, I'd like to say that I'll have no problem lowering the standards/rules to match dh's, but who knows?....but I have cheerfully lowered them in the past...do I need to do more?

And the other problem I keep running into is that sometimes his standards/rules change!  For example, with the food rule, it was HIS rule that I was trying to enforce, but then he comes in & doesn't follow his own rule.  I just don't get it.     Do I need to bring every issue before him, even though it might bug him for me to do so?

[boysmama]

I came back here and see the healthybrat just posted exactly what my dh and I just talked about. 
You opened it up for negotitation by offering one french fry. Your husband may or may not stick by his original rule of no supper, no desert when he gets out of the shower and sees the crying child, but at least your authority would still be intact.
Perhaps your dh would be ok with fixing a plate at suppertime for the child that's choosing not to eat. Don't say you get to go to bed hungry, just  repeat the no supper/ no snack rule. Then when it is snack time bring out the plate for him and the snacks for the others. Then it's not forcing him to go to bed hungry, but it is following through on the no supper/no snack rule.

[khix]

Should I just cheerfully go along with dh reversing my decision? 

According to your initial description, it appears that you reversed your own decision.  You said, no dessert if you don't "finish" and then changed to "one french fry".

What kind of message does that send to the kids - about rules, about mom's authority, about dh's authority? 

Again you stepped on your own authority from the very beginning.  Your husband may have exacerbated the situation but, by your account, he did not initiate it.

If I did something wrong, can you point out exactly what it was? 

At the point where your initial ruling was ignored by the child, you should have followed through instead of renegotiating the terms set forth.  You in effect just lied to your child and told him "eat supper or no dessert" and then gave in and said "one french fry or no dessert".  The fact that your husband jumped on your coattails and road the ride, doesn't necessarily mean he over road your authority.  By the time hubby got involved, your authority was already compromised.

For example, with the food rule, it was HIS rule that I was trying to enforce, but then he comes in & doesn't follow his own rule. 

You were the first one to break the rule, by the time your husband emerged from the shower, the rule was already allowed (by you) to be broken.

If I had more time, I'd try to be more detailed, but I have company.  I gotta go.   HTH

Maybe I didn't explain it well the first time?  Let me try again:

The rule in our house is this:

1) Eat nothing, get nothing
2) Eat something, even just one bite, and get one snack
3) Eat everything, and get 2 snacks

I NEVER told my ds that he had to finish or he would get nothing.  I only reminded him that if he didn't eat anything, he wouldn't get anything else.  But, since ds wanted ice cream so badly, I proceeded to try to encourage him to follow rule #2 above.  I did not change anything, backpeddle on anything, break any rules, or renegotiate anything.

So, I'm still not understanding exactly what I did wrong.    I do think my reaction to dh was wrong...and I'm wondering how I should respond to him next time.

[CountyCork]

I'm curious - who made the initial rules in your house - you or DH?

What if you, without kids around, ask DH what he would like to see for rules on this particular issue?  If he says "I'll decide on a day by day basis based on what I see them eat," then that's that.  If he says "Eat it all, dessert is ok, otherwise nothing" then that's it.  See my point?   Can you just be honest and tell him the eating and dessert thing doesn't seem to be working, so what does he want you to do?

My husband forgets on a day by day basis if he made a new "rule" or not.  So when things are clear and we talk about it and he makes a decision, he wants me to write it down and post it.  I do that.  Then when the situation arises, he doesnt' have to remember the "rules" whether they are made by him, me or us together.  He can see the posted rule.

BUT, he always has the right to "overrule" the rules - his, mine or ours!  And hopefully in those situations my response is "hey, cool, whatever dad says" and that my response doesn't have the tiniest shred of a sigh, an eye roll, a shoulder slump or a face crumple.  My kids see and register all those things expressed by mom.  And so does DH.

So ask him what he wants, ask him if you should write it down to remember, and then continue to let him exercise his rules as he sees fit.

However, when you are in charge, be inflexible on your rules.  Make them very simple to obey, very crystal clear, and then altereth not!     That way your kids will know that your backbone is firm, every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

[khix]

I just realized where the confusion came from about me renegotiating.  In our house, the child has the oppurtunity to come back at any time throughout the evening to take at least one bite so he/she can have one snack.  So, I was giving this child that oppurtunity to take the one bite, but he took a nibble instead, which in my eyes did not count as a bite, but in dh's eyes it did.
.
.
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Anyway, these are dh's rules.

I will try to talk to my dh about it some more.....I tried earlier asking him what he wants the rule to be about something else, but he didn't want to talk about it....he thought I was trying to bait him.  I think it was a bad time.  I will also ask about writing the rules down.

I guess I need to work on being more submissive in this area?  Maybe it is an issue of control for me? 

When I'm in charge & the kids say that they'll tell daddy when he gets home, how do I respond?  And how do I handle it with dh when they do tell him?  I always feel I'm on the defensive, that I have to explain/defend my actions to dh.

[lovetoreadmom]

When I'm in charge & the kids say that they'll tell daddy when he gets home, how do I respond?  And how do I handle it with dh when they do tell him?  I always feel I'm on the defensive, that I have to explain/defend my actions to dh.

When you're in charge, BE in charge.  If the child(ren) "threaten" to tell daddy when he gets home, simply respond very firmly but in a non-chalant way,  "Okay, you can tell daddy when he gets home.  However, for right now, you need to obey me and do XXX."  Your children are seeing that you are swayed by their threats, and that may be quiet negotiation, but it is still negotiating nonetheless.  They MUST know that you are firm . . . as CC said, "your backbone is firm everyday and twice on Sundays."   

They must NEVER see (and your DH, also) that this bothers you.  At the slightest hint that you feel it bothering you, walk away and PRAY, PRAY, PRAY!!  The Lord will take care of the things you can't.   

I can speak of this first hand b/c this is often how my DH handles things with our DC, esp. DS.  If the child is crying, surely Mommy did something and the poor child is just suffering.  They may be pouting, pitching a fit, etc., but to him, it's Mommy's fault.  I will be honest and say that there are still times when I don't respond as I should, but I am learning to let the Lord handle what's His to deal with in the first place and not mine.  In this case I would say it's about doing right and not being right.

[denim&lace]

Khix,

My husband and I wrestled over this kind of thing for years.  It could still become an issue if I decided to let it, but I've decided not to. 

Here is how I would handle that situation starting where Daddy took over and allowed little Jimmy to have the ice cream:

Me: OOOOOoooooooo, did you guys see that?!?!  (looking around at all the kids with a twinkle in my eye) 

The kids: What, what did we miss?  What happened?

Me (smiling at my husband): You guys have suuuuuccccccchhhhhh a wonderful Daddy!!!

The kids (looking at Dad and then at me with a question in their eyes): huh?

Me: Well....  you guys saw that Jimmy didn't eat his dinner.... right?

The kids: Yes....(still wondering who slipped crazy juice to their Momma)

Me: And you ALL KNOW that Jimmy didn't DESERVE ice cream.... right?

The kids: (looking from Mom to Dad and noticing that Momma and Daddy have playful, teasing, fun, happy in love looks on their faces.) Ummmmm

Me: Daddy just showed Jimmy GRACE!  You know like when God sent Jesus to die for MY sins.  I don't deserve to go to heaven, but God decided to make a way for me to go anyway!  Jimmy doesn't deserve ice cream, but Daddy loves him sooooo much that he made a way for Jimmy to have it anyway!  Boy are you lucky that he's your Dad cause if it had been up to me you'd have gone to bed hungry and crying and sad and pitiful and whiney without any ice cream and woke up hungry in the morning... and then I would have made you work for your breakfast! Wuhahahahahaha! (and then I would have grabbed little Jimmy and tickled the little manipulating booger till he begged for mercy...) 

And when I got the chance I would take a little walk by myself and had a little conversation with God like this:

God, please give me wisdom...  I sometimes have a really, really, hard time submitting to my husband when it comes to the kids Lord.  I imagine he must struggle at least that hard in submitting himself to you.  Please send Your Holy Spirit to guide us both and teach us to submit ourselves as we should.  Thank you for giving me my husband.  I pray that you will help him to rule well over his own household.  Please help me to be the best helper to him and the best keeper of our home that he could hope for.   


His house, his rules, his kids, his potatoes, his ice-cream....  aren't you glad he lets you share them with him?     _{can you tell I've had similar challenges in my marriage?}  

[khix]

Oh, thank you LTRM & D&L!

D&L, I really liked the scenario you played out.  I will definitely try that next time.  I'm so wrapped up in trying to get the kids to obey & follow the rules & for me to "win" the battles, that I get blinded to everything else...I don't see how good these kids have it to have such a sweet, "soft" daddy!  I will definitely be pointing out the grace aspect of it next time. 

And I prayed that prayer just now with tears in my eyes....I will print it out & pray it often!

[Yankee]

OOPS- this is Leah IL speaking, not Yankee- I am on my husband's computer    Sorry honey LOL

I was thinking about this last night because I have been in this situation, not exactly but similar.

I would (for a time) have dessert after lunch if I were in your situation.  Even if you have to have dessert after lunch AND dinner as to not throw your husband off.  Here is why I would have dessert after lunch- PRACTICE!  Not so much for you but for the kids.  First make it sound like such a great fun thing that they get to have dessert twice a day   Then be sure to be 100% consistent in your rules which are

No meal, no snack
1 bite, 1 snack
Whole meal, 2 snacks

Right?  So that's what I would do.  When I want my kids to sit still say, in church or something, I train them at home.  You don't want to be doing the training "onstage" so to speak. 

It sounds to me as though your husband wants to see the finished product of training not the dress rehearsals    Practice during the day when he is not there to see the break downs and the mess ups.  At dinner (when you are performing LIVE), if you have to give in because of being overruled, you can know that tomorrow afternoon you will be able to practice again.  Then at least the kids will know that although they can get away with a little bit more at dinnertime- mama means business during the day  

Also, if your husband isn't hearing the showdown, he will more likely stand by your decision if a kid tattles on you later- it sounds like he may be giving in so as to not hear the chaos and crying and stuff.


Oh and another thing I just thought of.  How about making the snacks healthy snacks after dinner when they may end up getting it even without eating much, like fruit or something like that.  You can make the after lunch snacks the really gooey, tempting "bad" ones when you are able to enforce the rules LOL

[rainygladness]

Excellent post, D&L.  It is really a matter of attitude when it comes to this situation and being a "winner".  You hit the nail on the head.

Khix, it sounds to me like your hubby wants peace more than anything and he's willing to do whatever he can to have it.  Try to share your concerns with him in a way that does not feel like you are threatening his authority.  (Read the little book "For Women Only" - it's SO good in helping understand the way men think!  )
Homes are like miniature kingdoms and no kingdom is complete without rules. But if they are not followed, they have lost their power.   See if your dh would agree to having your home rules posted where they can be seen.  Make a list of your home rules and talk to your dh about which ones seem to work and which seem to cause trouble or backfire. He may veto some, make ammendments to some etc.
Make any adjustments he deems necessary and then print it out.  Make a signature line at the bottom with "King" or "President" under his line and ask him to "sign them into law".  Under your signature line you could print "Queen" or "Vice President".  Post it on the fridge or better yet, frame & hang it on the wall.  Your kids will be able to "see" the rules and hubby might be more inclined to follow his own rules if they are written and visible. 


A favorite poem of mine...

Sow a thought
reap an action
sow an act
reap a habit
sow a habit
reap a character
sow a character
reap a destiny
-Ralph Waldo Emerson 
 

[boysmama]

quote from post 3 " OK, I said, you won't be getting anything else the rest of the evening - you'll be going to bed hungry.  Consequence fitting the crime.  DH was right there eating too, and agreed with consequence (at least, he seemed to).  This ds did not get any other punishments...he was allowed to go outside & play after dinner, and then watch Veggietales later, etc."

quote from reply 9 "I NEVER told my ds that he had to finish or he would get nothing.  I only reminded him that if he didn't eat anything, he wouldn't get anything else.  But, since ds wanted ice cream so badly, I proceeded to try to encourage him to follow rule #2 above.  I did not change anything, backpeddle on anything, break any rules, or renegotiate anything."

My words from post 8..."I came back here and see the healthybrat just posted exactly what my dh and I just talked about. 
You opened it up for negotitation by offering one french fry. Your husband may or may not stick by his original rule of no supper, no desert when he gets out of the shower and sees the crying child, but at least your authority would still be intact.
Perhaps your dh would be ok with fixing a plate at suppertime for the child that's choosing not to eat. Don't say you get to go to bed hungry, just  repeat the no supper/ no snack rule. Then when it is snack time bring out the plate for him and the snacks for the others. Then it's not forcing him to go to bed hungry, but it is following through on the no supper/no snack rule."

Ok, I went by your first statement to determine that you had opened up the situation for negotiation with the french fry because you said first " No other food choices - go to bed hungry." A child going to bed hungry may bother a sensitive person which was the reason we suggested fixing a plate at suppertime, with the suppertime foods even if it is a few bites.  It is a non- emotional thing to get the plate out and repeat the rule "No supper, no snack. Some supper, one snack."  The child has an option of eating those foods and fulfilling the requirements of getting the desert- icecream. No discussion necessary. No chance for emotional manipulation.
If you are not sure dh will uphold a rule then put the responsibility on him. If it is his rule just tell the kid that dad said no supper, no desert. Let's ask him when he gets out of the shower.  Don't show any emotion other than cheerful waiting on dh's ruling. You support dh; you win! Make dh look awesome as denimandlace described and you go to bed with lots of good feelings on ALL sides. You've mentioned "tying strings" is one of your goals and the FIRST step in getting back the respect you need.
My husband hates emotional scenes, but if it is HIS rule, HIS decision and I am supporting him WHATEVER he chooses to do he is more likely to follow through.  If I decide what he ought to do then he has to pick sides. A man has to always choose the biggest battle and the toughest opponent and that is going to be me.    I become the biggest threat to the  right to rule in  his own house!   

[burlsgirl]

These ladies are so wise! My husband is somewhat like yours in that he HATES to come in and hear a bunch of  "commotion", so to speak. If he gets involved, it's  usually not so pretty, so I try to have everything running smoothly before he arrives on the scene. Which is what you were trying to do while he was in the shower, I know.

My only thoughts  were that maybe you should go back to the beginning and train for basic first-time obedience? There's no reason you have to allow whining and/or arguing at all, kwim? You're the mama and you don't have to enter into the fray with a 9 year old!

In the case with the french fry, I would've probably said something like, "Ya know, I'm giving  you a chance to earn yourself some ice cream, here, son. Work with me! You either eat the fry or you don't." Then, as soon as he began the "but I tried it, and I don't like it" argument, I would've said, "Ok,  game over. We're done here. Love ya." And walked away. Non emotional, not taking it personally, just teaching that he'll NEVER get anything (out of you) by whining, crying, arguing, etc...

I agree that it would be great to set up some opportunities like this while dh isn't at home. Practice using your authority. You're the mama!!

As a side note, when my first dd was about 18 months old, we were at a friend's house, and dd crawled under their computer table. I told her to come out, and she cutely said, "no, mama". I looked at my friend and shrugged, and said "what do you do?", meaning, in essence, "kids will be kids". Well, this girl looked me straight in my face and very sweetly said: "You're the mama. You make her come out." Oh. Yeah. There's a concept that hadn't occurred to me before!

That episode literally changed our lives. It was the beginning of me learning to train my children, instead of begging and just hoping for them to obey me. That was before I'd heard of NGJ, but the concept was there: You're the parent. Expect the children to obey you. You'll always get exactly what you expect to get.

Sorry to have gone on so long. I'm still in the midst of all this. As a matter of fact, I have an almost three  year old (different dd) who is in need of some higher  "expectations" as we speak! Being a mommy is lots of wonderful things, but easy ain't one of them!

Blessings,
Em

[khix]

I would (for a time) have dessert after lunch if I were in your situation.  Even if you have to have dessert after lunch AND dinner as to not throw your husband off.  Here is why I would have dessert after lunch- PRACTICE!  Not so much for you but for the kids.  First make it sound like such a great fun thing that they get to have dessert twice a day   Then be sure to be 100% consistent in your rules which are

No meal, no snack
1 bite, 1 snack
Whole meal, 2 snacks

Right?  So that's what I would do.  When I want my kids to sit still say, in church or something, I train them at home.  You don't want to be doing the training "onstage" so to speak. 

I don't get a chance to train to too often during the week because the kids are in school, and they get home around 4pm, and dh is usually home by 4:30.  But, I have been working on things on Saturdays (right now, we are working on being quiet/still for a certain amount of time - I suppose once they get that down, I'll move on to the food issues)

It sounds to me as though your husband wants to see the finished product of training not the dress rehearsals

I think this is true.

Make a list of your home rules and talk to your dh about which ones seem to work and which seem to cause trouble or backfire. He may veto some, make ammendments to some etc.
Make any adjustments he deems necessary and then print it out.  Make a signature line at the bottom with "King" or "President" under his line and ask him to "sign them into law".  Under your signature line you could print "Queen" or "Vice President".  Post it on the fridge or better yet, frame & hang it on the wall.  Your kids will be able to "see" the rules and hubby might be more inclined to follow his own rules if they are written and visible.

LOL, I like that idea!  I will run it by my king as soon as I get a chance!



Boysmama, it just occurred to me that if our rules confused you wise adults, then maybe they really are confusing for the kids.  I will have to see what my dh thinks about this. 

If you are not sure dh will uphold a rule then put the responsibility on him. If it is his rule just tell the kid that dad said no supper, no desert. Let's ask him when he gets out of the shower.  Don't show any emotion other than cheerful waiting on dh's ruling. You support dh; you win! Make dh look awesome as denimandlace described and you go to bed with lots of good feelings on ALL sides. You've mentioned "tying strings" is one of your goals and the FIRST step in getting back the respect you need.
My husband hates emotional scenes, but if it is HIS rule, HIS decision and I am supporting him WHATEVER he chooses to do he is more likely to follow through.  If I decide what he ought to do then he has to pick sides. A man has to always choose the biggest battle and the toughest opponent and that is going to be me.   I become the biggest threat to the  right to rule in  his own house! 

OK, makes sense!

I also have to work on laying it on dh's shoulders without it actually seeming like a burden for him.  When I start bombarding him with too many questions & requests for help/ideas, he gets overwhelmed and sort of shuts down.  Sometimes I get overzealous with trying to figure out what dh wants & trying to follow it, that it sort of backfires on me.  What is the balance?  My man definitely wants to be in charge (command man), but he doesn't want to be bothered with the nitty-gritty details.  If I ask him questions every once in a while, it's pleasing to him, but when I overdo it, it's not.  Pray that we'll have a time where we can sit & talk about all this....I know what I have been doing is not working.  But, that other post about trying to control stuff, I'm thinking that might be me....I think I need to let go more....stop worrying about winning all these battles...because if even I do win a battle, I'm still losing the war. 

In the case with the french fry, I would've probably said something like, "Ya know, I'm giving  you a chance to earn yourself some ice cream, here, son. Work with me! You either eat the fry or you don't." Then, as soon as he began the "but I tried it, and I don't like it" argument, I would've said, "Ok,  game over. We're done here. Love ya." And walked away. Non emotional, not taking it personally, just teaching that he'll NEVER get anything (out of you) by whining, crying, arguing, etc...

Sounds good....but let me ask this, what would you  (or any of ya'll) do if ds still kept whining/crying/complaining after I walked away?  Would it then become an issue of ds needing to stop whining/complaining (and punishing for that), or would I just ignore that for now?   (looking back, I think one thing I did wrong was continuing to try to encourage him to eat the fry...I should have just said it once & dropped it).   Then, what if ds was STILL whining when dh came into room?  Ds would have still "told" on me, I'm sure, and he would have still gotten his ice cream.  But, then, at this point, it would have been up to me to point out how their daddy is showing them grace.  (and thinking about the "what if", if I had given out punishment for the whining, he'd be whining even more & then "telling" on me for two things - that I'm so mean b/c I won't let him have ice cream and that he got punished too.  Ugh!  I just don't know how it got to the point where the kids think they can "tattle" on me & how it got to the point where I always feel I have to explain/defend myself to dh - how did it get to this point & how to reverse it?)

[burlsgirl]

Sounds good....but let me ask this, what would you  (or any of ya'll) do if ds still kept whining/crying/complaining after I walked away?  Would it then become an issue of ds needing to stop whining/complaining (and punishing for that), or would I just ignore that for now?   (looking back, I think one thing I did wrong was continuing to try to encourage him to eat the fry...I should have just said it once & dropped it).   Then, what if ds was STILL whining when dh came into room?  Ds would have still "told" on me, I'm sure, and he would have still gotten his ice cream.  But, then, at this point, it would have been up to me to point out how their daddy is showing them grace.  (and thinking about the "what if", if I had given out punishment for the whining, he'd be whining even more & then "telling" on me for two things - that I'm so mean b/c I won't let him have ice cream and that he got punished too.  Ugh!  I just don't know how it got to the point where the kids think they can "tattle" on me & how it got to the point where I always feel I have to explain/defend myself to dh - how did it get to this point & how to reverse it?)

LOL! I almost included what I would do if he continued to argue & whine, then I deleted it because I realize that our situations are different. Here, if dh were in the shower, I would have complete authority to "handle" it. So, sticking with the french fry case... if the child continued to argue or whatever after I'd said we're done and walked away, then yes, now we have a whole separate issue to be dealt with. It's not about fries & ice cream at this point, it's about disrespecting the parent. I don't "let that go", but some of the other ladies with older children may be more help there, as mine are still eight and under, and so far, we've yet to run up on situations where it's ok to allow them to blatantly argue to our faces.

I really wish that I had more and better advice for you. I'm frustrated for you, if that makes any sense!

Hugs,
Em

[denim&lace]

Khix...
Three little words that have saved me so much grief....

'Ask your Dad."

Sometimes it is hard to have any authority with your children when a command man husband is around and he isn't always on the same page as you.  The best way to not loose that authority (for me) has been to relenquish it before it is being challenged.  

So the scenerio would have played out like this...

Kids come in and start getting their snacks.  Jimmy starts asking for ice-cream.

Momma: Daddy already said no ice-cream for you so I will not let you have any.  You can ask Daddy when he gets out of the shower.

Jimmy sits and watches all the other kids have their snack and he waits. (at least until Daddy gets out of the shower Jimmy is dealing with the consequences that have been established.)

Daddy gets out of the shower, Jimmy asks for the ice-cream.  No matter what Daddy decides you have not relenquished your authority to the child, but to the Father... as it should be.  You do not get involved in Jimmy and Daddy's conversation unless Daddy asks you to.  Otherwise, be utterly absorbed in whatever you are doing and do not be offended by whatever Daddy decides.  


With this scenario you win on many different fronts.  The child has suffered the consequnce that was established at least for the amount of time that you were in authority.  You have not relenquished your authority to the child.  You are not the one driving your husband crazy with lots of "how should we proceed" questions.  You have shown your children that you respect your husbands authority and will submit to his wishes whatever they may be, setting an example for them.  You don't look like the bad guy or the good guy, but you've shown yourself and your husband to be on the same team.

You can never battle your husband and win the war because the two of you are suppose to be on the same side.  If you see that your child is drawing you and your husband into battles against each other to get his way, you gotta start out thinking this kid.  Stay outta the fight and let Jr. battle Daddy... more often than not Daddy will not appreciate his authority being challenged that way by a child.  (at least that has been my experience   )  

[denim&lace]

And I prayed that prayer just now with tears in my eyes....

I've prayed it LOTS of times with tears in my eyes...  I'm glad that it could help you too.

[lovetoreadmom]

Khix...
Three little words that have saved me so much grief....

'Ask your Dad."

This is one of the main things I've learned to do w/ my DC, esp. DS.  It does help in a lot of things.

You can never battle your husband and win the war because the two of you are suppose to be on the same side.  If you see that your child is drawing you and your husband into battles against each other to get his way, you gotta start out thinking this kid.  Stay outta the fight and let Jr. battle Daddy... more often than not Daddy will not appreciate his authority being challenged that way by a child.  (at least that has been my experience   )  

I think the hardest thing for me right now on this topic is that many times it seems that DH doesn't want the responsibility of having to decide, so when I give it to him he wants me to "stick around" and deal with it with him.  I want to do this, but it's getting harder b/c I have our DD to take care of also, and then there's Baby #3 coming due here in just a few weeks.

What would you all suggest here?  Our biggest battle seems to be bedtime.  DS wants to continue to negotiate "five more minutes" (or any other amount of time), and I would like to be able to sit down and just relax (it's usually 8:30pm by this time, and I'm pretty tired) or at least finish in the kitchen with the few remaining dishes that need to be put in the dishwasher or washed in the sink.  DS wants to be with Daddy, so I let that go, but it's hard to just sit there and relax knowing I'm going to have to get up at any given time to take care of DS (more like wrestling him to come to go to bed).  DH seems to not like this, but if I try to say or do anything and DS gets upset than DH steps in and says that DS can have more time, and then again I either look like the "bad Mommy" (prison warden) making him go to bed or be away from his Daddy or I'm just ready to collapse from exhaustion.  Is this a case where I should appeal?   

[HisLeahWife]

(If this fits better in "parenting" please move it; I was unsure of the best place.)

I'm sorry this got long.  I'm frustrated and don't see what to do, so I'm asking for help.  I'm not sure which of the below I could leave out and have a chance of explaining this mess.  Maybe if I understood it better, but perhaps then I wouldn't have a question!

My Mr. Command-Man husband is quite clear when what I am doing displeases him.  Finding out what he does expect, however, is often a guessing a game, full of frustration as I'm criticized or yelled out for doing something "stupid" or "foolish" or that otherwise upsets him.

I've been uncertain about how to handle some parenting issues lately, especially with our son.  The methods I've used I decided upon after much prayer and rejecting a number of options I knew would be displeasing to him.  They were what I felt would best please my husband.  From this thread's topic, you know he is not pleased.  But he won't tell me what he *does* want, and I am feeling frustrated and helpless.

He does expect me to be in authority over the children.   He expects them to obey me, and for me to train them.  He doesn't want whining, funny voices, back-talk (which from me is usually any response to an instruction of his), arguing with us, or a delayed response.  For the past month-ish he's asked me not to switch our 3 1/2 year old son, as he felt I wasn't doing it well and was damaging my relationship with him -- so I've sought other ways of maintaining order, using "corner time" as punishment when necessary and otherwise keeping him close, building our relationship ("tying apron strings"), including consequences in my instructions, refusing anything else until he obeys.

I have sought my husband's input.  About a week ago I didn't know what else to do as it seemed I was getting nowhere, and asked for his help so I could handle it as he wanted me to.  I don't want to be raising his children against his wishes; I hate feeling like I'm sneaking around if I suspect he may not like what I'm doing; I'd rather work with him as a team even if it isn't the way I might choose myself; and I didn't know what else to try.  I mentioned a few especially distressing situations that were coming up and asked what to do. He just said I needed to understand their heart and the discussion was closed.  (he used those words.) 

I thought I was in tune with their heart.  I thought I knew right where they were and things were going well.  Thus I have no idea what he means for me to do with that, and he refuses to elaborate.  It is increasingly clear he doesn't like what I am doing, yet I can't tell what part he doesn't like, what I should change, or what to do in general ... and I don't know what to do about it.  Help, please???  Any insights??   I know this is written out of my confusion so please realize the problems are being stated only from my (possibly distorted and definitely one-sided) perspective.

For example, today  when our son wouldn't listen I picked him up and turned his face to me.  Our son was fighting me and my husband looked up and snapped at me to let go of him.  When he found out that our son wouldn't listen, he barked at him to listen to me, which he finally did, but still didn't obey.  So I told him again, "No, pick up those boxes."  Then I had to go change the baby.  When I came back and he still wasn't picking them up, I started telling him again, and my husband told me to lay off him.         Now, usually my husband will switch our son if he disobeys me around him; so there was something different about today?   (I was not hurting our son at any time.  In fact although at one time he was yelling not to hold him tight as I was holding him in my lap I actually had him very loosely!  He was yelling more than he was trying to get away, making a show??)

Another time happened last weekend when I told our son to stand in the corner.  He'd been noisy and wouldn't listen to me during rest time, so I sent him to the corner -- but he was lying on the floor, crying, and kicking the door, which brought my husband up.  He was clearly irritated with us, asked my son what was going on, barked at him to obey his mama and go take a nap, and if he had to come up again he'd bring a switch.  Not sure what he expected me to do, but gathering that he didn't want me to send him to the corner then, I had him lie next to me (instead of on his own bed where the problem had started) so I could restrain his flailing and hopefully enforce more quiet.  Eventually, after a half-hour of not getting anywhere and seeing the situation devolving, I sent him back to the corner, and the whole thing repeated itself.   My husband returns again (no switch), snaps at me, and takes our son downstairs.  The noise has woken our daughters and so "rest-time" is over.  I still have no idea what my husband wanted me to do.

It was after the above that I asked him what he wanted me to do, pointing out that I felt my authority was being undermined when he intervened without a punishment and I wanted to please him. 

Basically:
-- he wants me to maintain authority and be the mama
-- he wants me to be warm, and in tune with their emotions
-- he is frequently unhappy with how I strive to follow the above (like he wants them happy, too??)
-- he won't clarify
-- he criticizes, intervening when he doesn't like what I'm doing: I have some negative directions (don't switch him) but little positive instruction.  Sometimes his intervention is to switch our children for disobeying me; sometimes it is to scold me.  I haven't been able to discern a pattern on when one or when the other, but figure there must be one somewhere?

(As an aside, yes, he does get angry and yell at them ... and yes, telling them they'll be switched and not following through is also a common occurrence for him.  He thinks it is good for them to see he is angry and will often yell at them, telling them not to make him switch them, rather than just switching them.  He has seen me switching them calmly and then thought I was being sadistic because I wasn't upset or seemed pleasant so he thought I was taking pleasure in it.  Sometimes he'll get angry at me with following through on a consequence because I'm not "reading their heart" and tells me not to be so methodical I need to be more responsive to their needs.  In general he is good and discerning people's true motives and their emotional state and I am not so good at these things. )   

It feels like he's being inconsistent, sometimes wanting one thing, sometimes something else, basing it on the convenience to him and how well his day went with how much he'll tolerate, yelling at me or at them based upon whomever is bothering him more.  He doesn't like to see our son upset and will often be irritated if my enforcing something with our son upsets him; but other times he'll hear our son testing me and resisting and will charge in to switch our son, telling him he must always obey "my wife and your mama" -- so it isn't like he just wants to have our son running things.  My feelings are not reliable, so I am thinking there must be something I'm missing here... I don't want to end up with the helpless conclusion that my husband is being selfish and capricious, lashing out in anger at whichever target is bothering him more, while expecting the impossible situation of maintaining order and obedience while never upsetting the children.  My gut tells me that I am missing something basic, either in understanding my husband or conducting myself, not that it's my husband's fault.  Perhaps my "reasons" are defenses to protect something I'm doing wrong -- but again, I don't know what that is, so please tell me if you can read that through my post!

[khix]

My dh is very, very similar to yours, and I, too, struggle with a lot of the same issues & questions.  I do not have any answers/advice for you...I just wanted to post to say that you are not in the boat alone, and that I look forward to seeing what these wise ladies have to say.   

[khix]

Here's a thought:  Maybe dh doesn't trust my parenting skills enough yet to give/relinquish full parental authority to me when he's not around?  (and he'd have every right, given my history!)  And then, when he comes in the room, that's why he usually assumes that I must be the one in the wrong?  If that is the case, how do I gain my dh's trust in this area?  Would the simple "Go ask your dad" stuff work?

[rainygladness]

Here's a thought:  Maybe dh doesn't trust my parenting skills enough yet to give/relinquish full parental authority to me when he's not around?  (and he'd have every right, given my history!)  And then, when he comes in the room, that's why he usually assumes that I must be the one in the wrong?  If that is the case, how do I gain my dh's trust in this area?  Would the simple "Go ask your dad" stuff work?

Ok, this might seem off topic or like a strange thing to say, but I hope you bear with me.   
I have found that troubles like this with a husband can be miraculous solved by making love to him (and often). That sounds sort of beside the point, but honestly it is so true.  A woman who tantalizes (frequently) her husband and delights in him, feeds the river that feeds the whole flock.  The husband who feels truly honored and cherished will do almost anything for his wife.  BUT it must be truly from your heart.  If it is just "service", it will not have the same result. 

I truly believe this our #1 ministry and if a wife is in subjection to her man and fulfills his need for a lover, a playmate, a friend, a supporter, a buddy, etc, he will trust her with his heart and by extension with his children, with his decisions, and on and on. 
Without this solid foundation, he will tend to distrust her and will be on the "defensive" and will not give her pleas much thought or consideration. 

Ministering to my man and reverencing him in front of others as much as possible results in nothing short of a miracle.  He loves to be my "hero" because I am always praising him, showing gratitude and amazement (sincere, true amazement) at his abilities to care for us.(Even in the smallest things like plunging a toilet or killing a bug for me.  )I am in awe regularly simply because he IS.  He's my man and I am so grateful that he is mine. 
In return, he can't seem to do enough for me.  He is constantly trying to show me ways that he loves me.  So he listens to my pleas and even defends me in front of my children and literally treats me like a queen.  I have been given "clout" that I never used to have.  The more I honor my husband, the more my children honor me. 

So I truly believe the victory to almost ALL marital strife starts in the bedroom.  

Honor him, reverence him, build him up in your eyes and in the eyes of your children.  The miracle is that you WILL reap what you sow.  He will then build YOU up.  And your children will rise and call you blessed.  It may not be the "quick fix" you crave, but I would rather do something that cures the disease than just treats the symptom. So I encourage you to not see each battle as it's own, individual, island of a problem or issue.  Step back and see it rather as a branch from the tree of your marriage.  The tree is watered from the ground up.  Feed the tree, you feed the branch.  Many, many "little" problems are solved by one "simple" solution.

The heart of her husband doth safely trust in her, so that he shall have no need of spoil.
She will do him good and not evil all the days of her life.  Prov 31:11, 12

HTH

[denim&lace]

Here's a thought:  Maybe dh doesn't trust my parenting skills enough yet to give/relinquish full parental authority to me when he's not around?  (and he'd have every right, given my history!)  And then, when he comes in the room, that's why he usually assumes that I must be the one in the wrong?  If that is the case, how do I gain my dh's trust in this area?  Would the simple "Go ask your dad" stuff work?

My question would be... Is this behaviour just common as it concerns the children, or does your husband generally like to be in control of most things concerning the home? 

See, as a command man, my husband likes to know where every penny has been spent.  He acknowledges that I am just as capable of taking care of the money as he is, but he is the one who does it  because that's how he is.  My husband enjoys picking out and purchasing every large purchase for our home.  He doesn't really care what color the new sofa is, but... he still wants to be involved in picking it out.  He wants for me to consult him when  picking out paint for the walls.  He has never told me 'no' to any color I picked, he just likes to be involved.  Picking out kitchen towels, brands of foods, where I purchase our meats from, what store I buy gas at... these are all areas where my husband has made the decision for our family.  My husband is also very involved in how I train our children.  He makes the decision about dessert after dinner, having a friend over to visit, if they can watch a movie and what movie they watch.  There was a time when I would try to make these decisions,and became so frustrated after having my decisions overturned numerous times over things that Dad would later allow on his own terms I realized that it isn't that he doesn't trust my judgement (because when the kids go directly to him and ask, he consults me and asks for my opinion) so much as he likes to be the one to make the decision.  He's an uber command man!!!

My friend has a visionary husband.  He could care less where they get their meats, what she paints the walls (he hardly notices they've been painted!), what the kitchen towels look like,  or what brand the mac and cheese was.  He'd probably be aggravated if she asked him where he wanted her to buy gas.  Just fill the tank!  He lets her train the children as she sees fit.  They have well behaved children, that's all  he cares about.  When she says 'no' to a particular movie, he doesn't bat an eye. 

Honestly, I think my husband trusts my judgement as well or better than her husband trusts hers.  My husband has told me that he's soooo glad he married a woman that he knows would be capable of raising his children and doing it well if anything ever happened to him.  The only difference is my husband likes to be the one that has the final say, especially if he is around. 

You know how we like to refer to our husbands as King on this forum... well in our house, if he is the king I am the governess in charge during his absence.  The moment he arrives on the scene, my authority is no longer valid... the real boss has arrived.  Frankly, now that I've figured that out, my life is so much easier...  I struggle to remember why I fought it for so long.

Partly, I know that I was confused.  I, too, was trying to meet my husbands expectations.  Since it appeared to me that he was so inconsistant I spent years frustrated trying to figure out exactly what it was that he wanted/expected... and almost positive that I couldn't meet it, whatever it was... because I had tried EVERYTHING without success.  I didn't realize that in just making the decision I was failing. 

So IMO, if I were you I would start by trying to determine if he really needs to have the authority turned over to him, or if he honestly doesn't trust your parenting skills.  For my command man husband, just knowing I was willing to defer to his judgement from the get go has made all he difference. 

Then again... I like the bedroom remedy idea.      



       

[SC lady]

What does our attitude say about our latitude?
What is the level of our perspective?

I’ve noticed that we wives tend to ask marriage advice that generally falls into two categories. The first group is a large one with questions that tend to sound like:

• ‘How do I get my husband to REALIZE what’s the right thing to do?’
• Or . . . ‘I know I should be doing _____ but MY husband/circumstance/children/whatever makes it impossible. Aren’t I the exception?’
• Or . . . ‘I cannot possibly serve God with THIS man as a husband (or this background, or these considerations). . .’ Followed by supporting evidence.

The second category is smaller and tends to boil down to:
‘How do I serve as a help meet in THIS circumstance and raise THIS man’s children in a way that honors God?’

The heart that seeks to learn ‘How can I please God in this place, at this time, in this circumstance’ is a heart that I believe is well pleasing to Him.

It’s a bold statement to make, I know, but . . .
When we accuse our husbands of being responsible for our failure, we are accusing God of being incapable (or unwilling) to provide us what we need to serve Him (as did Egypt’s Pharaoh).

Duke was teaching us this weekend about how God organized Israel under a system of judges. As long as Joshua and the elders that had witnessed what God had done for Israel were alive, Israel served the LORD. (Joshua 24:31; Judges 2:7) Each man expected to conduct himself under the law, honoring God.

However, when these elders died, the law became little more than a list of rules. Everyone began to do what they thought was right in their own eyes. (Judges 17:6; 21:25) The people were no longer delighting in God’s law. (Psalm 40:8 ) Even Samuel’s own sons were doing wickedness. (I Samuel 8:1-3)

How does this apply to us as wives?

We would do well to ask ourselves how we are viewing the headship that God has ordained in our lives – God’s provision for authority. Are we looking at these things as a hardship imposed upon us? Is this our burden? Is it a curse imposed upon us by God as a way of keeping us ‘in our place’? Are we to chafe and grind under the unfairness of having to serve fallen men, fleshy sons of Adam?

Or did God have something else in mind?

Is God capricious and unconcerned about those things which concern us most? (Psalm 10:16-18; Isaiah 59:1) Do we tremble and fear under the assumption that the enemy controls our fate through our husbands?

Or do we KNOW that God is our Father and able to work all things for our good? (Romans 8:28; Daniel 4:17; Job 5:17; Proverbs 3:11; Hebrews 12:5)

Have we become as the nation of Israel during the time of the Judges? Do we see God’s guidelines as something to endure and work around as best we can while pursuing our own ideas of right and wrong? Has the written record of God’s faithfulness to His people become little more than interesting stories?

Or do we trust that within God’s instructions we can find our designed purpose and delight in pleasing Him?

“BUT THAT’S NOT WHAT I MEANT!” we protest, “I’m just saying that this isn’t working, and I need help straightening out the mess my husband has made (or is making). My husband needs to understand that he’s being unreasonable!”

The people of Israel thought much the same of the judges and went to Samuel to petition him to anoint them a king. Samuel went to God. “And Samuel prayed unto the LORD. And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.”[emphasis mine] (I Samuel 8:6.7)

“But my husband isn’t GOD!”
Neither were the judges of Israel. They were disobedient before the very people they were to judge. (I Samuel 8:1-3; Judges 14-16)

These were men appointed to God’s task and for His purpose . . . just as wives have an appointed task and purpose. Why should we imagine that our husband’s obvious flaws impede God’s design? Why rob ourselves of the opportunity we have to declare God faithful and honor Him as such?

At what point in our frustration do we declare the whole task impossible and ourselves beyond the reach of God’s resources?

We can select from an assortment of remedies. There are many man-made solutions.

Or we can remember Who God is.
We can recall what He has promised and who we are to Him.

Will we simply abide by the letter of the law? Have we forgotten the heart of the matter? Does God desire children that are able to declare themselves blameless? Will we take upon ourselves our own righteousness? What materials will we use for our labor? (I Corinthians 3:9-13)

For those ladies that have asked for practical advice, I have a suggestion.
Go through your post (or write up one at home, pouring out your own circumstance).
Then go through your words and highlight them in difference colors. Give a color to what you DID and another color to what you THOUGHT/FELT. Give one color to what another person DID and another color to what you believe that person THOUGHT/FELT. Do this for all of the individuals involved.

I think it will be a revealing exercise as you see how MUCH what you THOUGHT colored your experience. Focusing on the ACTIONS will reveal some eye-opening insights as well.

I did this with a few posts myself and was stunned to discover that in one instance, the wife was upset because a husband granted something to a child that SHE WAS IN THE PROCESS of granting herself.

Yes, ladies, we ARE emotional creatures. God made us this way for a reason. Will we allow those emotions to be ruled by doubts, fears, uncertainty and accusations?
It may be time to consider that God created us for things much higher and nobler than the games the enemy would play.

And it is in THIS perspective that I believe we will find rest and purpose as we go about honoring our husbands. One woman may be married to a man who is very structured and orderly in his requirements. Another wife may find herself following a husband that is changeable with the wind. However, the children will find much comfort in HOW that authority is honored in the home. I absolutely LOVED the response by denim&lace:

Daddy just showed Jimmy GRACE! You know like when God sent Jesus to die for MY sins.  I don't deserve to go to heaven, but God decided to make a way for me to go anyway!  Jimmy doesn't deserve ice cream, but Daddy loves him sooooo much that he made a way for Jimmy to have it anyway! Boy are you lucky that he's your Dad cause if it had been up to me you'd have gone to bed hungry and crying and sad and pitiful and whiney without any ice cream and woke up hungry in the morning... and then I would have made you work for your breakfast!

It shows honor to both her LORD and her husband. Her children know that they are loved by both God and their father and that their mother takes delight in service to the KING and her king.

. . . And this post by rainygladness: http://www.7xsunday.net/forum/index.php/topic,21349.msg207998.html#msg207998 should be taped to the inside of our eyelids for us all to memorize every time we blink!

[khix]

RainyGladness,

I like your analogy about the tree being watered from the ground up.  That could very well be the case.  After years & years of me being "cantankerous" (and still falling back into that trap now & then), I guess it's going to take a while longer before my dh's heart fully & safely trusts in me.

D&L,

My dh generally likes to be in control of most things...I would say that he is more like your dh than your friend's dh.  While he wants to be the decision maker, he also doesn't want to be bothered with endless questions from me.  And sometimes, he doesn't want to make a decision at that moment....and if I try to prod him to make a decision NOW, he gets upset.  He will eventually make the decision...I just have to be patient!

Regarding this:

I would start by trying to determine if he really needs to have the authority turned over to him, or if he honestly doesn't trust your parenting skills.

What is the difference between the two?  What would a dh's actions look like either way?

I think I do need to work on turning over authority to him....I know my heart is there, but sometimes my actions aren't.      

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