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[khix]

Also, let me share what happened yesterday....one reason to show that things like this happen with other things, not just food...another reason to ask for critique for how I handled it...I think I did better yesterday!

Anyway, on Saturday, 7yo ds was jumping on trampoline, but not following a certain rule.  I told him he'd be grounded from the trampoline for a couple days for not following the rule.  (I probably should have been more specific with the number of days, but I wanted to leave it open to allowing him back on for good behavior and for understanding what he did & why it was wrong.)

So, yesterday, on Sunday, he wanted to jump on the trampoline, but I told him no, reminded him that he was grounded because of what he did on Saturday.  Off & on throughout the day, he'd be upset about this ruling or would ask to jump, but these times never lasted more than a minute or two.  Well, around 4:30 pm yesterday, I was on trampoline with youngest dd, and the ds wanted to get on too.  Again, I reminded him of his grounding.  This time, without my prodding, he acknowledged what he did & that it was wrong & said he was sorry & wouldn't do it again.  I told him he was forgiven & apology was accepted, but that he still had to deal with the punishment for today (meaning yesterday).  During this time, dh was within earshot in the shed, and he said that ds had been punished long enough & that he could get on trampoline.  My instant initial internal reaction was annoyance...as in, "Oh, no, here we go again, dh is overriding the punishment & not allowing the kid to suffer a consequence so he can learn from this" etc, etc.  But, I rememberd D&L's advice about pointing out that dh was showing grace, and that's exactly what I did.  And I told ds to tell daddy thank you, and he did.  This is definitely not what I would have wanted to happen, but it worked out well for all of us.  Most importantly, it worked out well for me - I wasn't bitter or argumentative or angry or anything.  Hopefully, I can keep responding in this RIGHT way, even though it's not MY way!   

[joychild24seven]

I'm not aged  and I haven't been married very long, but I have studied personalities and relationships my entire life. I love watching people interact with eachother and comparing the fruits of their interactions with scripture and what the Word has to say about it.

Proverbs 31:12 She will do him good and not evil all the days of her life.

Proverbs 31:25 Strength and honour are her clothing; and she shall rejoice in time to come.

Proverbs 31:26a She openeth her mouth with wisdom.

I think this is a relational issue that is also bearing fruit in your child training.

This article http://www.nogreaterjoy.org/articles/child-training/teens/article-display/archive////patriarchal-dysfunctional-families-part-2/?tx_ttnews%5BbackPID%5D=63
really helped me understand honor, especially the very last part where MP responds and goes through all of the different scriptures.

I think you need to realize that while it is in your best interest to honor and reverence your husband, this does not mean playing in to his weaknesses and inconsistencies. I would find a good dictionary and write down the definitions of strength, honor, dignity, gracious, virtuous, sober, and wise. A gracious woman retains honour, I fully believe it is possible to honor your husband as the most honourable man on earth, and still stick up for yourself as a gracious, strong, and honorable woman that God Himself created you to be. You are created to be his Help Meet, not his Yes Man,  Door Mat, or emotional Punching Bag.

Ultra-subservience, and fear of your husband (rather than fear and trust in the Living God who will preserve you) can be manipulative. You are reacting to his selfish, sinful, inconsistant behavior, by trying to do all of the right things and manipulate him into righteousness and maturity.

It is scary, but I believe it will be healthier for your family, your husband, and your children in the long run if you respond in love and truth, and confidence in your own right standing with God.

 I would make sure that your responses are calm, not rebellious or in anger, but also not weak and wimpy, confident. 'I'm sorry you are displeased with me, but I am doing the best that I can with the information you've given me. If you'd like it done another way, I will need more specific instructions.' Meet every emotional response calmly and with dignity. Repeat yourself as necessary. Don't talk down to him. Talk as if you expect him to believe and respect you, even if he doesn't day after day.  If he accuses you of not connecting with the heart of your child, quietly say 'I am doing the best that I can' and leave it at that.

This could escalate situations more in the  short term - more anger and more yelling as he tries to emotionally manipulate you into responding to him. But as you continue to be otherwise joyful and honoring in your interactions with him, mildlly surprised that such an honorable man would treat you with such disrespect, and stick up for yourself, become a mamma of honor and dignity, you will at least train your children to have healthy responses to his foolishness, as well as hopefully coming to a place where the man you honor is truly honorable.

Siege and Denim&Lace have much more personal wisdom  and experience to share, and of course there are many women on here more experienced and wiser than I. Listen to them. You are an amazing woman, and are in our prayers as you figure this out!  jamie

[In Christ]

I too am in similar situation.  It's very difficult to be here.  Especially with children involved.  I can only pray that GOD gives me the grace and peace to handle each day, sometimes when he's on vacation, each minute 

After 14 years I am getting better and understanding more and also trying to be sympathetic to his insecurities and maybe he has fears I don't know about, maybe fear of failure.  Who knows?

I was gonna share something else but I can't remember and I need to go and read to ds.  But try reading the Topic about Losing Son under Parenting...there was so much good advice on there I printed them ALL out : )

[amy3js]

I had similar thoughts as Joychild while I was reading through your post, and I think that she gave some awesome advice. As you pointed out, we are only seeing a brief, one-sided picture of what is going on so it is hard to give accurate advice. From what you said, it does sound like Joychilds post/advice is the best solution. However, you also said that you felt in your gut that you were missing something and that it wasn't your husbands fault. If this is the case, I think a good solution would be to spend some time in prayer, meditating on how you act in these situations and ask God to show you how you should act. If you come out of that conversation with God and still don't have an answer, then I would proceed with Joychild's advice, making sure to remain humble, gracious and open to correction from the spirit. 

[denim&lace]

My dh generally likes to be in control of most things...I would say that he is more like your dh than your friend's dh.  While he wants to be the decision maker, he also doesn't want to be bothered with endless questions from me.  And sometimes, he doesn't want to make a decision at that moment....and if I try to prod him to make a decision NOW, he gets upset.  He will eventually make the decision...I just have to be patient!

As far as I can tell, nobody really wants to be bothered by endless questions.  Doesn't it irritate you when your children endlessly ask you questions?  Especially questions you may not have ready answers for at the moment... And, when you aren't ready to make a decision do you want somebody pressing you for an answer?     

So, for us this is how it has worked...  I always bought the meat for our family at Store A because that is where I did the bulk of our shopping, they had decent meat at very reasonable prices.  I never asked my husband where to buy meat.  Then one day we were driving along and my husband asked me if I had ever thought of buying our meat from Store B.  I answer no and tell him why I purchase meat from Store A.  He says, Yeah, but this meat market is local and he likes to support our local community.  I take this as a request from him to start buying meat from Store B.  I ask him the next weekend if he has time to go shopping with me, I'd like to check out the new meat market.  I find that Store B is a local meat market that costs a bit more but the meat is  fresher and we can get it packaged in exactly the right size for our family.  My husband helps pick out the cuts of meat and see's how much it cost to buy the meat for the week.  He then asked if there was enough of the grocery budget to purchase the other items we need and I tell him that I think I'm going to need an extra $25 or so... he transferred $50. 

There was a time when I would have either ignored his suggestion knowing that the prices didn't fit our budget or feeling offended that what I had been doing didn't seem good enough to him I would have caused an arguement by trying to get him to see WHY store A was the right choice.  Either way, I would  have continued shopping at store A...  He would have felt devalued, I would still be bringing meat home and re-packaging it to freeze, our whole family would still be eating meat that isn't nearly as good quality... and our whole family would be slightly irritated and not really understand why. 

Chosing to not be offended by my husbands choices has had a huge positive affect on our marriage.  Believing that he has a sincere goodwill toward me in everything helps me to look for how he is trying to help me, rather than hinder me.  The Bible says we are to give no occasion for offense, and in my experience taking offense when none was intended is the surest way to offend somebody.   

Generally, a command man doesn't have to be asked to lead.  If he wants to see a change he will usually let you know... even if it is thinly disguised as a suggestion (most suggestions from my command man is really a command  ) .  Otherwise, just carry on as you are.  Don't change things.  Don't ask what needs to be changed.  He'll let you know when a change is in order.   

[denim&lace]

[How does this apply to us as wives?

We would do well to ask ourselves how we are viewing the headship that God has ordained in our lives – God’s provision for authority. Are we looking at these things as a hardship imposed upon us? Is this our burden? Is it a curse imposed upon us by God as a way of keeping us ‘in our place’? Are we to chafe and grind under the unfairness of having to serve fallen men, fleshy sons of Adam?

Or did God have something else in mind?

Is God capricious and unconcerned about those things which concern us most? (Psalm 10:16-18; Isaiah 59:1) Do we tremble and fear under the assumption that the enemy controls our fate through our husbands?

Or do we KNOW that God is our Father and able to work all things for our good? (Romans 8:28; Daniel 4:17; Job 5:17; Proverbs 3:11; Hebrews 12:5)

Have we become as the nation of Israel during the time of the Judges? Do we see God’s guidelines as something to endure and work around as best we can while pursuing our own ideas of right and wrong? Has the written record of God’s faithfulness to His people become little more than interesting stories?

Or do we trust that within God’s instructions we can find our designed purpose and delight in pleasing Him?

This is truely a key point. 

Thank you yet again SC 

[denim&lace]

Also, let me share what happened yesterday....

From what I can see from your post, you deliberately set aside your own feelings and desires to honor your husband.  That is love in action.  Good job.  I'd give you a big hug if you weren't 4000 miles away.   

Just curious...  How did your dh respond? 

[khix]

Generally, a command man doesn't have to be asked to lead.  If he wants to see a change he will usually let you know... even if it is thinly disguised as a suggestion (most suggestions from my command man is really a command  ) .  Otherwise, just carry on as you are.  Don't change things.  Don't ask what needs to be changed.  He'll let you know when a change is in order.   

Ahh, I see.   Will a command man also disguise a command as a complaint?

And, um, yeah, I definitely need to work on not taking offense!  

From what I can see from your post, you deliberately set aside your own feelings and desires to honor your husband.  That is love in action.  Good job.  I'd give you a big hug if you weren't 4000 miles away.   

Just curious...  How did your dh respond? 

Thank you!  Dh didn't respond, per se.  He told ds "Your welcome" after ds thanked him.  Other than that, he didn't really respond, that I can tell.  Of course, there was no fighting or discourse on my end, so I guess there was no need for him to respond.  No response is a good response!  I think he may have internalized it....chewing on it so to speak.  The main fruit of this is that the rest of the evening did go well, and I think I learned a big lesson...perhaps the greater work was done in me?  And what's weird, is that I wasn't looking (or caring) to see how dh responded...I was just focusing on my own response to the situation...and I think that helped.

[denim&lace]

Generally, a command man doesn't have to be asked to lead.  If he wants to see a change he will usually let you know... even if it is thinly disguised as a suggestion (most suggestions from my command man is really a command  ) .  Otherwise, just carry on as you are.  Don't change things.  Don't ask what needs to be changed.  He'll let you know when a change is in order.   

Ahh, I see.   Will a command man also disguise a command as a complaint?

And, um, yeah, I definitely need to work on not taking offense!  

From what I can see from your post, you deliberately set aside your own feelings and desires to honor your husband.  That is love in action.  Good job.  I'd give you a big hug if you weren't 4000 miles away.   

Just curious...  How did your dh respond? 

Thank you!  Dh didn't respond, per se.  He told ds "Your welcome" after ds thanked him.  Other than that, he didn't really respond, that I can tell.  Of course, there was no fighting or discourse on my end, so I guess there was no need for him to respond.  No response is a good response!  I think he may have internalized it....chewing on it so to speak.  The main fruit of this is that the rest of the evening did go well, and I think I learned a big lesson...perhaps the greater work was done in me?  And what's weird, is that I wasn't looking (or caring) to see how dh responded...I was just focusing on my own response to the situation...and I think that helped.

Yes, a command man will disguise a command as a complaint... or at least mine does.  I honestly think this is unique to certain command men... maybe ones with overly domineering mothers whose wives didn't value their command skills early in marriage and stood like a brick wall against their created nature to command and conquer...  but that is just an opinion based on a very limited view. 

My husband often says to our kids... "I think your mom would agree with me."  That use to really bug me when he said that when I DIDN'T AGREE WITH HIM!  Until I realized he was really saying, "Agree with me I need your support right now."      The light bulb came on.

And another yes.  No response is a good response.  It probably means he didn't disagree with you.  I would guess he is chewing this new response over... wondering if it was a heart response or....  Ya know?  How valued he will feel when he realizes that you DO value him as leader and won't question and argue his child rearing techniques. 

[lovetoreadmom]

It feels like he's being inconsistent, sometimes wanting one thing, sometimes something else, basing it on the convenience to him and how well his day went with how much he'll tolerate, yelling at me or at them based upon whomever is bothering him more.  He doesn't like to see our son upset and will often be irritated if my enforcing something with our son upsets him; but other times he'll hear our son testing me and resisting and will charge in to switch our son, telling him he must always obey "my wife and your mama" -- so it isn't like he just wants to have our son running things.  My feelings are not reliable, so I am thinking there must be something I'm missing here... I don't want to end up with the helpless conclusion that my husband is being selfish and capricious, lashing out in anger at whichever target is bothering him more, while expecting the impossible situation of maintaining order and obedience while never upsetting the children.  My gut tells me that I am missing something basic, either in understanding my husband or conducting myself, not that it's my husband's fault.  Perhaps my "reasons" are defenses to protect something I'm doing wrong -- but again, I don't know what that is, so please tell me if you can read that through my post!

I have had some of these same similar thoughts when it comes to things about my DH and our DS.  DH is so convinced that DS is different from any other child in the world, and although that's true when you think about God creating us so individually, there are some basic things that are alike all across the board.  It is difficult to know how to respond, b/c I read so many things in your post that sound so familiar. 

How much training can you do when DH is at work during the day?  I would set aside time to do this rigorously each day (in a fun and playful sort of way for you and the kids).  Then, and although this seems inconsistent to you, whatever happens when DH comes home, well that's his responsibility.  If you can't switch the children (or more specifically your DS) than I would say find any and every other means of making his bad/inappropriate/defiant behavior counterproductive.  Tie strings as much as you can.  Do everything you can with your DC, esp. DS.  If you are bringing your request(s) before God's throne of grace, then He will answer you.  He will listen to you, and He will also know that you often times may not know how to pray, so He will listen as the Holy Spirit "itself maketh incession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered." (Rom. 8:26b)

My dh is very, very similar to yours, and I, too, struggle with a lot of the same issues & questions.  I do not have any answers/advice for you...I just wanted to post to say that you are not in the boat alone, and that I look forward to seeing what these wise ladies have to say.  

 

As I said above, so much of what I read of your post, HLW, sounds so familiar to me also, as khix mentioned here.  You are not alone in seeking God's wisdom in knowing what to do when it seems like things just don't make sense.  Keep praying, keep seeking God's face.  He will reveal Himself to you if you are truly seeking and desiring to know Him and His Will in all of this.

[HisLeahWife]

Thank-you, LoveToRead.  I do try to do as much as I can while he's at work, and minimize things when he's home.  Still, some things do come up then.

And Khix, I think you might be right about some similarities between our husbands.  I frequently relate all too well to your posts!!

Last night we got to talk a little more.  He still won't give clear direction, but I understand more the comments he has given -- and remember the advice of some of the wise ladies that our husbands often know best.   His assessment is that my relationship with my son is currently negative, and I frustrate our son; I need to lighten up and focus on the relationship.  So I'm walking the line of trying to build the relationship, keep him close, while not allowing defiance or having the 3 year old run the house.  It's challenging! 

I realized, too, when trying to figure out WHY things haven't been working after so long of tackling them (nearly 2 months now pretty intensely with him reacting, nearly 5 months of focused tackling) -- and I came up with 3 factors with a friend.  I just don't know what to do about any of them.
* my son is highly intelligent, so may pick up on my mistakes quicker than others.
* I am as consistent as I am able.  Nevertheless there are times where I realize I forgot to follow through on an instruction, forgot an gave an instruction, or otherwise space out.
* I have lost my temper a few times during this and given the correction harsher than needed, certainly not given warmly & calmly.

The only conclusions I come to are:
* keep praying
* Do my best each moment
* continue on, hoping to improve my consistency & calmness & warmth
* make building the relationship with him really tight a priority, not just keeping him close (or doing it as a consequence to misbehavior) but involving him in what I'm doing always and building him up, encouraging him, cuddling him, etc.

[lovetoreadmom]

WOW,  HLW!!  Are you sure that you and I are not somehow living the same life.  Your son sounds so much like mine, and your responses, as well, right down to the losing my temper and being harsher than I need to be.  I think you and I must be thinking with the same brain.   

I will be praying for you, as I think I know how to pray based upon the similarities.  I have to really watch how I speak to our son b/c I want so much for my DH to see things the way I do that I take out the frustration toward him on our DS.  I know that isn't right, and I need to make sure I'm honoring, reverencing, submitting, so that DS can do so in the right way toward me and his Daddy.  I also have to remember the important point you made . . . DH's often see things we don't and are much wiser than we give them credit.  They are in the position they are for a reason, and I have to stop trying to take over that spot.  I would only make a mess.   

LTRM 

[khix]

Dh is such a softy when it comes to his kids.   Dh & rules/consequences don't go too well together!      I am making a much more focused effort lately to point out to the kids how lucky/blessed they are to have a dad like him.  This is definitely helping me to not be upset about our differing opinions when it comes to parenting, which is definitely helping in other areas!    

But, there are times that we agree on what the kids should be doing or not doing, but we do not agree on the method for achieving it.

For example, we agree that the kids should obey commands immediately & respectfully. 

However, we do not agree on how to achieve this.  Obviously, spanking & yelling are out of the question.   They don't work anyway - we do agree on that.  So, in an effort to do something else besides yell & punish all day long, I started to have "training" sessions on Saturdays.  But, after the third one, dh finally said that he thought that trying to "train" the kids was a dumb idea....akin to sort of treating them like a dog.  I reminded dh that I was trying something different to see if I could achieve the desired results....something that did not end up with me upset & yelling...and besides, I asked, how can kids know what to do if they've never practiced before?  To which dh responded, I don't know, but they don't need to practice it.  (and for record, I have asked dh for ideas before, but he never has any to offer....he says what NOT to do...don't spank, don't yell, etc....but he never says what TO do).

Well, because he thought it was dumb, I stopped.  I'm not sure what else to do to achieve dh's (& my) desired results.  It seems everything I try or suggest, he doesn't like....I think he doesn't like it because he's never encountered it or heard of it before....anything that didn't happen in his own life growing up is entirely...well, stupid to him.  The only thing I have been doing successfully is what I stated in the first paragraph, and also just letting dh handle the kids' misbehavior...this way, he sees how "bad" it really is....and I'm starting to sense that he knows something's gotta give, but he's not sure what to do.  Should I suggest the training/practicing again, or should I just be quiet & pray & let dh eventually come up with his own ideas, however long it may take?  I'm thinking it should be the latter, but I just want to make sure.
 
Also, are there other ways of achieving the desired results besides training/practicing?

[~esposita~]

It seems everything I try or suggest, he doesn't like....I think he doesn't like it because he's never encountered it or heard of it before....anything that didn't happen in his own life growing up is entirely...well, stupid to him. 

This quote caught my eye.  Let explain in a long-winded manner. 

My DH has worked with/for a handful of men that had a hard time hearing other peoples' ideas.  Often, DH would suggest an option to tackle ____ problem only to be completely shot down.  Then, a week, a month, a few months later, the man in charge would suddenly say, "Hey!  I have a great idea!  Lets do ____."  Basically, the proposed idea was exactly what DH had said weeks ago!  This, as you can imagine, frustrated DH for a time.  Then he realized he could do things a couple of different ways:  He could (1) Do what he saw needed to be done...only to be criticized and shot down before the plan came to fruition; (2) Never say anything and let the man in charge dig his own grave, so to speak; (3) Speak his mind, expecting to be shot down, and expecting to see his idea revisited at a later date when it was 'their' idea; (4) Learn to present ideas in such a manner that the man in charge could either throw it out OR - the key - take ownership of it and instate it as a plan of attack.

DH learned to use a combination of (3) and (4).  Now, he did grow up with a father like this, so he has had MANY years to practice!  However, it is only as a grown man that he is able to see what is going on, recognize that a lot of the actions by the 'man in charge' are based out of pride and insecurity, and posture himself before the 'man in charge' in such a manner that he (DH) gains their trust, their ear, and their respect - all the while being not easily offended.

Did this make any sense?

What I am trying to say is that perhaps you are married to a man that likes to have all the solutions, that likes to be seen as right, smart, with-it, confident...basically "THE MAN."    So, maybe instead of trying out new parenting ideas and waiting to see if your DH goes along with them, I propose the following:

(1)  Ask the Lord for wisdom.  He WILL give it! 
(2)  Once you have an idea, think of a way to present it to your man in a clear (but casual) way.  Don't say, "Lets do this in this manner."  But more along the lines of a "What about this idea, babe?"  Be ready to have the idea rejected (like # 3 in my above list).  When it is, don't be hurt, don't be offended.  Just continue drying the dishes (that's part of the 'casual' in the presentation  )  Act like you EXPECT him to have an alternative.  (NOT expect as in, "Well, since you don't like my idea, you'd better come up with a different one!" Rather, expect as in you have confidence that your man will have an idea.)
(3)  Then wait.
(4)  And wait some more.
(5)  And pray while you are waiting.
(6)  In the mean time, do everything your DH has ever hinted for you to do.
(7)  When DH even begins to suggest an option, pour yourself into it, expressing confidence in your DH and his leadership. 

In time you may be able to have open conversation with your DH, during which you give him pieces of the puzzle, then allow him to order them as he sees fit. KWIM?

Another idea:
There have been times that I have recognized a problem with my kids and gone to my DH and said, "WHAT should I do about this?"  Sometimes, he give a GREAT plan of attack.    Other times he tells me I'm focusing on the wrong thing and need to change my perspective. Sometimes, he says NOTHING.  I've had to learn that in the times when he says nothing, I just plain need to WAIT for an answer; it will usually come in a round about way that I least expect - more as a suggestion or hint.

Anyway, those were just ideas that popped into my head!
HTH! 

[In Christ]

If I am repeating someone else, PLEASE forgive me, I probably got this from one of you anyway 

I think my new approach is to PRAY for DH to have the wisdom and for me to have an obedient, trusting, submissive spirit to whatever DH comes up with even if I don't like it.

BTW, if I do this enough, he'll learn to trust me and maybe will actually share or step up to the plate and lead or tell me what he thinks if best.

I am still focused on the whole thing I wrote up that morning about God head of Christ, Christ head of man and Man head of woman (thank goodness I don't have to be head of ANYONE!!! yay God, what a great plan!)   And thus the idea is GOD has the perfect plan, man doesn't tell Christ how or what to do and if man follows Christ example, man doesn't even do anything that isn't already part of Christ's current plan...therefore, if I follow that example, I just have to let my "head" lead...and NOT my own flesh or emotions or heart, IF that makes any sense to you, I will be impressed 

Well, again, what I wrote that morning was four pages long, so that is just a small abbreviated piece of my thoughts....I don't think anyone has time to read ALL of it 

[kcb]

How old are your kids?

[khix]

Did this make any sense?

Yes, that made perfect sense!  There is even a foreman at my dh's job who is like the boss you described!  My dh will make a suggestion, and the foreman shoots it down.  But, hours or days or weeks later, he'll "come up" with the same suggestion! 

Thank you so much esposita!  I understand my man that much more now!  I don't know why I didn't see it before!  So, just because dh shoots down an idea, it doesn't mean that the idea is lost forever.  My man just wants to be THE MAN, just like you said!  Makes perfect sense!  And it occurred to me that when he does come up with the idea on his own in the future, then it will give me the oppurtunity to say how smart & awesome & wonderful he is!

I think my new approach is to PRAY for DH to have the wisdom and for me to have an obedient, trusting, submissive spirit to whatever DH comes up with even if I don't like it.

...IF that makes any sense to you, I will be impressed 

Yes, that does make sense.  Thank you!

How old are your kids?

5, 7, 9, 11

[denim&lace]

Also, are there other ways of achieving the desired results besides training/practicing?

Well...  This one takes a little more work on Momma's part but there's always the love them into compliance method.  It involves LOTS of tickling and hugging and roughing up hair and winking and... well anything silly and goofy enough to get them moving.

It works like this.
Momma: Timmy, go bring down the laundry for Momma, please.
Timmy: Sits playing the DS without a response.
Momma: (scooting close to Timmy and goosing him in the ribs) Timmy... am I going to have to tickle you until you wet your pants to get the laundry brought down?
Timmy: Looks up and grins (or smirks) at Momma...
Momma: (grabs the pillow from the sofa) Maybe I'll just have to BEAT you into submission!!! (as you start a pillow fight you KNOW is gonna last at least 10 minutes)
Timmy: picks up the other pillow and laughing, plays with Mom for 10 minutes forgetting his DS momentarily...
Momma: (winded from the game...) OK... Now, go get that laundry! (with a great big smile) 
Timmy: at this point he will either submit... or not...  in which case Momma may have to offer to help or promise that lunch will not be served until Timmy complys... but usually Timmy will submit with a smile at this point. 

See, it takes a lot more time than other methods.  It has some significant downfalls, as it does not produce immediate obedience in your children (they will be waiting to see what kind of fun comes first and they tend to believe that Momma is always there waiting to be tickled, and rough-housed), but it also has significant advantages too (happier, more agreeable attitudes in your children and a slow working toward obedience). 

As you go along you will be able to stop abruptly in the early stages of the fun and say, "Ok, no more until the laundry is down here..."  Then run and hide as they trot off to retrieve the laundry, just to jump out at them and scare them as they turn a corner into the laundry room... 

Then eventually you can stop, look at the clock and say OH MY!  Look at the time!  I've gotta get dinner on!  We'll have to finish this later, go get the laundry please.  (but remember to finish it later, otherwise you loose credibility)

A word of caution... do NOT resort to bribary...  little extortionists are no fun for anybody...

That's really the last method I can remember my parents using that had a positive affect in the right direction.  I think I've explained all the rest.

[khix]

D&L,

Thanks for the suggestion.  I'm not sure yet if I'll try it, because it does sound time-consuming & exhausting, but it also does sound like it might work & I will keep it in my arsenal of things to try.


kcb,

Just curious - why did you ask how old my kids were?

[kcb]

Also, are there other ways of achieving the desired results besides training/practicing?

Yes, I think so!  I think of training / practicing sessions as being for 2yos and 3yos.  I believe that older kids need more "real" consequences, heart-to-heart listening/talking, etc.  They need to be treated in a "real" way, becoming more and more like the way adults treat each other. 

I have lots of ideas that have worked for us, but my oldest is only 7yo. 

[boysmama]

Khix,  don't stop short because of the work  and time involved.  Go at it whole heartedly until you reach the finish line and ask God for extra energy. 
I get discouraged too, but in a different way as mine are still young. Still it is wearying. I love to think on the promises God has made about us asking and He answering... Also Galations 6: 7-10 It might not be quite right to apply that to mothering  so if you don't want to look at the verse, just look at the natural order that shows up in the garden. What we sow, we reap.  So often I hear that as don't sow bad things, BUT the reverse is true also!  Sow GOOD things and that's what you reap. So.....don't go hungry later because it was too much work to plant now. 
And another analogy...don't just plant. Water, weed, fertilize and wait-sometimes you  wait a LONG time until the crop is mature enough to "reap".  Even replant if needed. Try, try again.

PS. I'm not saying you should implement everything that is an option in doing your job as mom within your husbands comfort zone. I only want to encourage you to not hold back because it's hard.  .....Or quit trying if the tomato plant is just barely poking up out of the soil and doesn't have tomatoes on it yet. LOL

edited to clarify my meaning

[skelliott2]

Are you looking for parenting ideas?  Or are you asking how to handle your hubby's indecision?  I don't really know much about the hubby part, but I do have a parenting idea:

Since your kids are a little too old for timeout, you might try the charting/ticket method:

They start the day with 5 tickets (you decide the actual number)
Each ticket is time for a privilege, like the DS
If they backtalk, or do not obey immediately, they lose a ticket
When the tickets are gone, the whole privilege is gone
So, basically, quick obedience is the only way to get the DS time


Make sense?

You could also do this with a chart.  Doing chores, etc, earns privilege time on the chart.  This assumes that you are able to control the time they spend on the DS or cell phone, but it can be effective, if you're consistent with it...

[kcb]

Since your kids are a little too old for timeout, you might try the charting/ticket method:

They start the day with 5 tickets (you decide the actual number)
Each ticket is time for a privilege, like the DS
If they backtalk, or do not obey immediately, they lose a ticket
When the tickets are gone, the whole privilege is gone
So, basically, quick obedience is the only way to get the DS time


Make sense?

You could also do this with a chart.  Doing chores, etc, earns privilege time on the chart.  This assumes that you are able to control the time they spend on the DS or cell phone, but it can be effective, if you're consistent with it...

We do this too, but we start with zero and I award "tokens" for work done well.  It works great for my 7yo, and he loves it!

[khix]

I think of training / practicing sessions as being for 2yos and 3yos.  I believe that older kids need more "real" consequences, heart-to-heart listening/talking, etc.  They need to be treated in a "real" way, becoming more and more like the way adults treat each other. 

Thanks for this, kcb.  It occurred to me that perhaps when I was doing a training session, I was treating them like a young child....since I don't know what I'm doing, I probably was doing it wrong, and dh saw it being done the wrong way, and was totally aghast & told me to stop.  I'm sure he understood that the kids need to be treated in a more "real" way, but he just didn't know how to explain it to me.  So, he called it stupid & told me to stop.   Thanks, kcb, the above statement helped more than you know.

Khix,  don't stop short because of the work  and time involved.  Go at it whole heartedly until you reach the finish line and ask God for extra energy. 
....
PS. I'm not saying you should implement everything that is an option in doing your job as mom within your husbands comfort zone. I only want to encourage you to not hold back because it's hard.  .....Or quit trying if the tomato plant is just barely poking up out of the soil and doesn't have tomatoes on it yet. LOL

   

I know what you're saying, and I'm not going to stop short.....but it's already time-consuming enough to be working part-time & having the kids in school full-time, and only having time in the evenings & weekends with them....evenings are for homework, winding down, dinner, etc.  Weekends are for getting stuff done and/or having fun.  And through all this, it's hard enough as it is to just make sure we all make it through the day in one piece!  I don't know if roughhousing for 10-20 minutes after every command (and x4 since I have 4 kids!) would be productive!  KWIM?  I know it wouldn't hurt for me to have a smile on my face more, but I'm not sure if tickling & pillow-fighting is the way to go.  But, at the same time, I will keep this idea in mind, and should the Lord tell me to do this, I will obey!

However, with the whole chart thing, I do think I can step it up a notch.  We do have a reward chart that is working, and I'm going to come up with a chore/responsibility chart too.  I think maybe if I step up the reward/consequence chart stuff a notch, it may help.  Thanks for reminding me of my valuable chart tool, skelliott! 

[kcb]

I think of training / practicing sessions as being for 2yos and 3yos.  I believe that older kids need more "real" consequences, heart-to-heart listening/talking, etc.  They need to be treated in a "real" way, becoming more and more like the way adults treat each other. 

Thanks for this, kcb.  It occurred to me that perhaps when I was doing a training session, I was treating them like a young child....since I don't know what I'm doing, I probably was doing it wrong, and dh saw it being done the wrong way, and was totally aghast & told me to stop.  I'm sure he understood that the kids need to be treated in a more "real" way, but he just didn't know how to explain it to me.  So, he called it stupid & told me to stop.   Thanks, kcb, the above statement helped more than you know.

khix,

After much consideration, I wonder if this issue could be the underlying parenting difference between you and your husband . . . I say this with hesitation, because I don't know your whole story, but this is what I see in your posts.  There is a big difference between rules that are *real* and "rules" that are arbitrary.  In order for a rule to be real, everyone has to understand *why* the rule is in place, so that everyone is essentially obeying the underlying "why" instead of just obeying a rule.  Your husband seems to want to treat the children in a "real" way, and the rules are not always "real".

For instance, a common house rule is "Eat your dinner, or you will not get dessert."  The underlying "why" is "if you eat sweets instead of healthy food, your body will be unhealthy."  If you deviate from the "why", then the rule becomes arbitrary and has no meaning. 

Also, you may not have "rules" against backtalk and arguing.  In fact, it is very difficult to lay out exact rules for proper communication.  But backtalk blatantly goes against the underlying principle of respect for other people.  How will you train children not to backtalk?  Not by laying out rules, but by explaining the value of relationships and by carefully modeling, disciplining, withholding, restricting, and relating.  This is *real* training.

Real consequences are valuable, but we often have to bring in an "arbitrary" consequence if the real consequences are too harsh.  For instance, if a child is not trained to work diligently, he is likely to grow up to be lazy.  The real consequence of lifelong laziness and poverty is too harsh!  Therefore, we *have* to incorporate arbitrary work requirements, rewards and punishments, for dc.  But **if everyone doesn't understand the underlying reasons**, then the whole system looks stupid, even to the children!! 

So, I would recommend looking at the underlying purposes of each rule and system that you have in place.  If it's not working, look for new ideas -- ask dh and dc if they have ideas for how to accomplish the ultimate goal of good work ethics and respectful communication.  You might be surprized at what dc can come up with if they understand the real goal!  But be aware that they might have some requirements for you too.  I have a sneaky feeling that children like to be treated respectfully as well as adults.

I hope that helps some.  Like I said, I can't be sure that this really addresses your situation.  It's just my conclusion from what I read here.

P.S.  My dh has only *two* house rules:  1. No falling.  2. No getting hurt.   

[khix]

Hmmm, you bring up a good point, kcb.  That just might be an issue.  I don't know why I didn't think of it before.  Ugh, I still have so much to learn!  I feel like a child in school myself sometimes!

[kcb]

Khix,
I know what you mean by feeling bad about not already knowing how to parent.  I felt that way last night, because I was just beginning to see that my 2yo (3rd born!  I should know better!) has been subtly manipulating me for the past two or three months!  I was completely fooled, by a 2yo!!      Oh well.  A friend encouraged me about it:  "Thank you God for bringing it to the light!  Now I can deal with it."  No guilt, just moving forwards.  Besides, children seem to adjust to "the new management" within a few days, often without carrying over any bad training from "before."  I pray that God will give you wisdom and grace in your changes ahead!

kcb

[khix]

Dredging up an old topic....

This is what happened earlier today:

As usual, a ds of ours would not eat his meal, nor try at least one bite.  Ds left the table to go play in his room.  Now, in our house, this is normal, and dh usually sees nothing wrong with this.

But, today, dh made this ds come back to the table.  Dh declared that the kids were going to start eating/trying their meals or else they'd lose privileges....one of which was being able to play outside after dinner.

So, anyway, ds still would not eat/try any part of his meal.   He was allowed to get up.  Then he proceeded to put his shoes on & go to the door.  Dh told him no, that he could not go outside. 

After about 5-10 minutes of ds mildly complaining about not being able to go outside, dh finally says that ds could go outside.

Throughout all this, I sat back & did not say a word, except to ds, which was that he needed to listen to his daddy.

After dh let ds go outside, I asked him what exactly did that teach ds?

Dh said that it taught him that he (ds) needs to think about eating his food next time.  Dh said that the mental anguish that ds was suffering for 5-10 minutes was punishment enough.

I was really flabbergasted at this....but I just quietly said that I didn't agree & I just let it go.

My attitude is (lately anyway) more of "Oh, well, if dh wants to parent that way, then so be it."  (I guess I'm hoping that dh, on his own, without any "nagging" from me, will eventually realize the error of not following through on consequences).  I'm really trying to support dh & his rules (or lack of them!), and just be joyful in the midst of such a relaxed atmosphere.  I know that if I freak out & get all worked up over all the "normal" rules that my kids aren't required to obey, that I'll be bitter again & that I'll yell more & be more stressed out, etc. 

So, while I'm really trying just to enjoy life with my kids & my dh, I still do get concerned about what my kids are being taught (or not taught) and about what kind of people they are going to grow up to be.  Is there anything I can do to counteract the "lackadaisical" parenting attitude without ruining the joyful, relaxed atmosphere?

And I have to admit, sometimes when I am around other parents (who have more "strict" rules), I am sometimes....'embarrassed' by our relaxed rules....especially when my kids are less well-behaved than their kids.  I can tell that the other parent doesn't approve of my child's behavior, or of my rules for them.....but, then again, my kids are just behaving in a way that is normal & accepted at our house.  Is there a way I can get over this embarrassment?

[In Christ]

WOW, I haven't been on here in a VERY long time, but I thought it would be appropriate to share this with you as I just was sharing with my best friend the other day and she was so floored she kept calling it a miracle:
(For some backgroung, see the Post I wrote on Losing Son...under Parenting I think)

So, my dh isn't exactly into parenting like I would like him to be   BUT...I got so sick of dealing with ds and the computer and video games so I finally reached some point a month or two ago where I just started telling ds that I would not deal with those anymore...do NOT ask me for permission or anything to do with them...if he asked when Daddy wasn't home, I said, I'm not dealing with those, you'll have to wait until he gets home and ask him...I said this quite a bit over the first few weeks and I Know dh heard me and ds told him what I said...well, right off I was slightly bothered when I came home or something and knew ds had spent hours playing on one or the other, but I didn't say anything...can't have a double standard right, either I am or I'm not...haha...so I didn't and kept totally totally sticking to my guns   I'm not answering those questions, I'm not dealing with those games, I'm not giving permission, etc.  Well, it didn't take long for me to hear dh telling ds...you have one hour, or something that almost sounded like parenting, instead of just saying "I don't care" or whatever.  Well, he started more and more giving him time limits and then a few weeks ago he had given ds ONE hour and then ds didn't turn it off on time (it does take several minutes to shut either down) so dh reminded him, then went back and reminded/warned him again a little more agitated, THEN when ds did get off and have it turned off, dh told him that it was 36 minutes past when he was supposed to be off, so he just lost 36 days, DAYS, of computer time....WHOA!  I thought I just won the lottery!  Then a week or two later I heard dh mention that ds had lost like 10 more days for not obeying/listening to him....This is TRULY truly a miracle.  GOD is so very good and so very faithful.  I just wanted to share that with you all...I don't know if it will help or if it will be encouraging, I Hope so....I Hope I handled it in a way that would bring glory to GOD and honor my dh.

Now, I may be here tomorrow crying because of something else, but hopefully GOD is really working on me...and to think 12 years ago, I thought I was the "good one" the Christian and I didn't need to be fixed......hahahahaha..... LOL!        Can you believe that!  Now I'm praying more and more to be changed and delivered from my wrong thinking, my attitude, my sin, my bad habits, etc...and I don't even know what all they are right now, but I'm sure they are there and HE'll reveal them when  HE knows is best and he just might keep using my lost husband to do it...and that's okay, Amen?

[denim&lace]

I agree! 

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