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[Monita]

I use to go to a church that taught a separation doctrine that said that we should set ourselves apart and not be yolked with unbelievers.  I never understood this it did not make sense in the way they taught  it and seemed to push people away and create a spirit of pride and unfriendliness.

Well, I have been feeling guilty for being friends with unbelievers lately and all of the teachings that I heard from that church are ringing in my ears. 

Since coming back to live stateside a couple of my friends who knew me before salvation have gotten in touch with me.  They found me!  A part of me sees this as an opportunity to become friends again and then pray the Holy Spirit would use me to witness to them. 

Also, I have gotten back in touch with family members who seem to be desiring a friendship and my feelings are the same, to be a friend and then pray to be used to witness.  But I keep hearing all the stuff that was taught about not being yoked up.

What is the real deal here?   What is a lie and what is the truth about this separation thing?  Are there guidlines from the Bible about this? 


(I hope I put this in the right place)

[ridgerunner]

It seems to me that Jesus befriended unbelievers and if it's good enough for Him it's good enough for me.  I wouldn't be as close to Him as I am now if it wasn't for believers continuing to befriend me and teach by their example. 

 If there's any Biblical backup for that total seperation theory I hope someone more knowledgeble will explain it here, my initial reaction is I don't want any part of it.  My understanding of 'come out from among them and be ye seperate' is that it referred to your own lifestyle, not the lifestyle of the people around you.  I don't understand how being with like- minded people only is really being seperate, because you wouldn't stand out as a light if you're not being contrasted with darkness. 

For myself, chapter 7 of Luke seems to invalidate the total seperation theory.  Here are some verses:

34The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!

 35But wisdom is justified of all her children.

 36And one of the Pharisees desired him that he would eat with him. And he went into the Pharisee's house, and sat down to meat.

 37And, behold, a woman in the city, which was a sinner, when she knew that Jesus sat at meat in the Pharisee's house, brought an alabaster box of ointment,

 38And stood at his feet behind him weeping, and began to wash his feet with tears, and did wipe them with the hairs of her head, and kissed his feet, and anointed them with the ointment.

 39Now when the Pharisee which had bidden him saw it, he spake within himself, saying, This man, if he were a prophet, would have known who and what manner of woman this is that toucheth him: for she is a sinner.

So it seems to me that here the theory of total seperation from unbelievers is defined as a Pharisee trait.  It appears that they tried to use it to invalidate Jesus.  He already befriended sinners by coming to the Pharisee's house for dinner, and then went even further to befriend and help a woman who although her sin isn't named, appeared to be publicaly known as a 'sinner'. 

Am I misinterpreting or taking this out of context?  Anyone have a different understanding of it?

[Monita]

  I wouldn't be as close to Him as I am now if it wasn't for believers continuing to befriend me and teach by their example. 

Me either.

My understanding of 'come out from among them and be ye separate  is that it referred to your own lifestyle, not the lifestyle of the people around you.  I don't understand how being with like- minded people only is really being separate, because you wouldn't stand out as a light if you're not being contrasted with darkness. 

I have never studied this so have no understanding from scripture but just when I would hear the teachings from the leadership and even other women reminding us to set ourselves apart I would feel "this is not right".  I just felt that it was wrong in my spirit.  It just did not make sense to me.  When I would bring it up to people there they would explain to me that we need to guard ourselves from being pulled under.  I figured that they knew more than me.   But I kept feeling it was not right and did not make sense.

My experience was proving different.  My Dh would invite folks from work over and I was expected to befriend the wives.  Many seeds were planted in these cases and I felt the Holy Spirit working.  Also, I would be reminded of people who showed Gods love to me when I was lost, it wasn't adding up. 

I just keep doubting right now as these old friends and family are contacting me.   Still thinking that maybe they are right and I am wrong.

Thank you for posting, it has helped.  

Anyone have a different understanding of it?

I too would like to know.

[ridgerunner]

When I would bring it up to people there they would explain to me that we need to guard ourselves from being pulled under.

I think that the principle of guarding yourself against being pulled under is valid, but I don't see how it's Biblical to guard against being pulled under by totally seperating ourselves from the very people that we're supposed to be a light to. I don't remember anywhere in the Bible where when we were commanded to care for the sick and feed the hungry that it was stipulated 'only if they are believers'.   I do think that there are some people who are bent on pulling believers away from their faith, and if we know that we are not strong in spirit enough to resist then perhaps it is best to refrain from socializing with them until we trust Jesus enough that we would be strong enough to be a light to them without being influenced away?  Just rambling...

I've been taught this seperation stuff too Monita, and it never seemed Biblical to me either.  But, I'm not a teacher and not very 'spiritually mature' so to speak, so I could be sadly mistaken.  Just expressing my thoughts.  I hope someone who knows more than me will interpret the Bible's meaning on this for us.

[andiclare]

I think that the principle of guarding yourself against being pulled under is valid, but I don't see how it's Biblical to guard against being pulled under by totally seperating ourselves from the very people that we're supposed to be a light to.

Ditto to this.

We are told to love our neighbor, to admonish the sinner, and to spread the Gospel. But at the same time we are told to avoid bad company. 

My best guess is it's impossible to answer this question in generalities. We gotta use our common sense and discernment and take these things on a person-by-person basis.

[ridgerunner]

I keep thinking about this and an example came to mind.

When our children our born, they're not technically 'believers'.  Obviously, we're not going to cast them away and refuse to associate with them.  We teach them about Jesus. 

I think that with non-believers, we can't exactly sit them down and teach them the way we do children (and I for one wouldn't want to), but we can instead teach them about Jesus by allowing them to see Him in us.  If a person is truly walking with Jesus, the difference in them and a non-believer will be obvious and eventually the non-believer may ask questions and then our belief can be shared in a loving (not shoving) way.  If all believers refused to associate with the non-believers, well, it seems that the church would die out.  Or become some sort of monarchy, because we would only be teaching our children and no one else would have the opportunity to become a believer. 

As far as avoiding bad company, perhaps the term 'bad company' needs to be properly defined?  For me, it would mean someone that I know has had the opportunity to choose Jesus, did not choose him, and actively tries to turn others away from him.  That last part is important to me in the definition of 'bad company'.  That is because if someone chose to turn away from Jesus, but does not actively try to dissuade others from Him (and by actively I don't mean by blatant means only, there are subtle ways of active dissuation), they should be harmless to you if you're strong in Christ.  The active dissuaders would be harmless to you if you're stong in Christ also, but they (in my opinion) could be a waste of your time since they're oblivious to your 'light' and usually thrive on the attention of believers, and could harm the spiritual well-being of your children if you associate with them while your children are around. 

Many believers would have considered me 'bad company' for several years of my life.  If they had kept to themselves in order to stay away from my 'bad company', I'd probably still be angry and resentful at God, blaming Him for all the mistakes of bad people that were covering their evil ways with His name.  Instead, I'm actively trying to learn to 'rest in Him'.  I'd like to think that I could 'rest in Him' so securely that associating with non-believers would never be a threat to my security, but rather a pleasant opportunity to let His light be visible.

I've also heard this argument used for the total seperation theory.  "Associating with non-believers will destry my witness for Christ.  Birds of a feather flock together you know."  It would appear to me that if you don't associate with non-believers, you have no witness.   Since 'witness' is a verb that Webster's Dictionary defines as (in the context of the Christian witness) "to bear witness to; testify to; give or afford evidence of"  it would seem that be the very nature of that verb, the prescence of a non-believer is required for the action.  In the verses I quoted above, it looks like the Pharisee's tried to use this argument to discredit Jesus  (Luke  7:34-35  34The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners! 35But wisdom is justified of all her children.). 

Again, I don't know if I'm understanding this right, and would really appreciate it if someone would confirm with their own opinion, or point out the errors in my reasoning.  I actually have a lot of hermit-like tendencies, I enjoy solitude and living far away from towns and stuff, so I'm certainly not knocking living away from mainstream society or homeschooling, what bothers me is the teaching that no matter where we are or how we live, if we are believers we should absolutely not associate with non-believers.  It just doesn't seem Biblical to me, but if there's something that I'm missing or not understanding, I'd like to know.

[denim&lace]

In the Q&A podcasts on NGJ, Mr. Pearl recently addressed a question by a lady asking why God would harden Pharoh's heart.  In the answer he gave he said something along the lines that our witness not only brings some non-believers to Christ, but it also prepares other non-believers for a just judgement...  Neither of which would be possible if we didn't associate with them.  According to my understanding of Mr. Pearls teaching, God has a purpose for our relationships with both types of non-believers.  Both the ones that have or will accept Jesus, and the ones that are a "waste of our time" because they have not accepted Him and may even be trying to turn others away from Him.

Just a thought...  It was a hard concept for me to wrap my heart and mind around when I heard it...     

[Monita]

One of the things that kept popping into my head was that I use to get told that we were to be friendly so that we could witness but that we were to not be friends, like hang out.   We were told that if they do not repent because of our light or do not get repelled from our light then perhaps we had no light to begin with.  We were told that if the unbelievers could be around us and feel comfortable around our light then we needed to ask ourselves if we were even in Christ to begin with.  Maybe there is some truth to this though, I don't know for sure. 

Even now as I write this it reminds me of all of the doubt that I struggle with.  " Well, what if they do not repent, what if they can be around me without ever feeling convicted, what if these old friends do not see a change in me."     This is the stuff that goes through me head.  I have peace for a time but then these thoughts come back because of the teachings I heard on separation.  I have one friend in particular who has been my friend for 5 years and has never turned to God nor has she ever been turned off by me.  So, the doubt creeps in.

   Two people in the past few days have called me and as I prayed for the Holy Spirit to guide my conversation with them because He knows that I have no clue.   I said to each of them almost the same exact thing.  Just encouraging them to believe and have faith and to turn to God and put there faith in Jesus.  I had given these two people a gospel tract during our visit  home this summer.  I found it funny that the two people I gave a tract to were hearing the same speech just as I was feeling so much doubt.   They are both struggling with many things and "sick" inside.   I really feel that I must be a friend to them.

One friend who has been calling me does not know I am a believer now.  I do not know if she hears a change or not.  She has always been against God and religion ever since we met.  I have not talked to or had a friendship with any of these 3 people for years but I am now   I have to have faith that the Lord has sent them and will give me what to say.  I really do feel the need to be their friend because they are sick and need help the kind of help that only Jesus can give.  But the doubt still creeps in.

In the Q&A podcasts on NGJ, Mr. Pearl recently addressed a question by a lady asking why God would harden Pharoh's heart.  In the answer he gave he said something along the lines that our witness not only brings some non-believers to Christ, but it also prepares other non-believers for a just judgement...  Neither of which would be possible if we didn't associate with them.  According to my understanding of Mr. Pearls teaching, God has a purpose for our relationships with both types of non-believers.  Both the ones that have or will accept Jesus, and the ones that are a "waste of our time" because they have not accepted Him and may even be trying to turn others away from Him.

I did listen to that Q&A it was food for thought.   To me, I thought that I must not take any rejection personal but try to be a friend.


 

I actually have a lot of hermit-like tendencies, I enjoy solitude

Me too!  Big time.  I have always had a hard time making friends.  I am quiet, keep to myself, do not like to open myself up to share personal info or opinions very much, do not like to be around groups or crowds.   I could really embrace separation in that way... but my spirit just will not let me.  I keep seeing the need to love my neighbors,  and to befriend those that are reaching out to me and those that my Dh wants me to befriend. 

Doubt does still creeps in due to the particular teaching but I am really thinking that the way it was presented to me was false.  IMO.  I did hear about a message about separating from sinning Christians on NGJ  and it made sense.   
So, maybe that is the "truth" part.  Don't know and don't want to even pretend like I do.  This is just what has been personally happening in my life due to the confusion about this particular teaching. 

[ridgerunner]

Doubt does still creeps in due to the particular teaching but I am really thinking that the way it was presented to me was false.  IMO.  I did hear about a message about separating from sinning Christians on NGJ  and it made sense.   
So, maybe that is the "truth" part.  Huh Don't know and don't want to even pretend like I do.

I know what you mean... I think D&L made a valid point about Jesus having a plan for believer's interaction with non-believers. 

Just to clarify, when I said that some could be a 'waste of our time', I didn't mean that I thought that we should avoid contact with people that we deem unaccepting, even though that's what it sounded like I meant.  It seems to me like deciding that some particular person is 'bad company' and should be avoided is taking it upon ourselves to judge them.  What I meant was, if someone's spewing out a message that could harm impressionable children, I'm cautious about the interaction I allow them to have with me while my daughter is present.  And, I'm careful not to ever get into a discussion on Jesus or the Bible with them, because it would be draining and I need my energy for more fruitful things like caring for my family.  Also, I think that these people (in my experience) have chosen their path and nothing's gonna change them but Jesus so all I could do is know that Jesus put me in their path for a reason try to live my life around them in a way that might allow them to see His joy, and let Jesus do the rest. KWIM?  Unfortunately, the only people I feel this way about currently aren't exactly 'non-believers'.  They are 'Christians' who have become so wrapped up in man-made doctrine that twists the Bible that I feel they turn people away from Jesus.  I know I was turned away because of it for awhile... If I had not seen the light through the example of some true believers I'd still have no desire to believe today because I'd never seen the real Joy of the Lord.

[denim&lace]

Opsy, ridgerunner, I didn't mean to sound like I was judging your statement.  I was, in fact, qualifying that I too have  wondered if I should remove myself from a relationship on different occasions because I thought that it may be a waste of my time. 

I quoted you because you said it first.     Not because I didn't agree... or at least understand the feeling behind it. 

[ridgerunner]

Opsy, ridgerunner, I didn't mean to sound like I was judging your statement.  I was, in fact, qualifying that I too have  wondered if I should remove myself from a relationship on different occasions because I thought that it may be a waste of my time. 

I quoted you because you said it first.     Not because I didn't agree... or at least understand the feeling behind it. 

No worries  .  I didn't feel like you were judging me, seeing my statement quoted just made me realize that it came across different then I intended it to.  Sometimes my thoughts don't flow from my brain to my fingers with as much clarity as I'd like. 

[khrys]

One of the things that kept popping into my head was that I use to get told that we were to be friendly so that we could witness but that we were to not be friends, like hang out.   We were told that if they do not repent because of our light or do not get repelled from our light then perhaps we had no light to begin with.  We were told that if the unbelievers could be around us and feel comfortable around our light then we needed to ask ourselves if we were even in Christ to begin with.  Maybe there is some truth to this though, I don't know for sure. 

Even now as I write this it reminds me of all of the doubt that I struggle with.  " Well, what if they do not repent, what if they can be around me without ever feeling convicted, what if these old friends do not see a change in me."     This is the stuff that goes through me head.  I have peace for a time but then these thoughts come back because of the teachings I heard on separation.  I have one friend in particular who has been my friend for 5 years and has never turned to God nor has she ever been turned off by me.  So, the doubt creeps in. 

I don't think that having unbelieving friends who have not yet been influenced by your faith means you need to doubt your salvation.  There are Christians who are married to unbelievers, and even though they are together for decades, the unbeliever still does not become a Christian.  I have heard plenty of teachings on those types of marriages, but I have never heard anyone teach that the Christian spouse should doubt their salvation because of the continued unbelief of the other spouse.  Some people just need a long time to change.  Some old friends may see changes in you, or may feel convicted by your example, but they may not admit to it for one reason or another.  Just because you don't think you are being a Christian influence on someone doesn't mean that you aren't, it just means you can't see the influence you are having.  I hope this helps. 

[Monita]

 

Just because you don't think you are being a Christian influence on someone doesn't mean that you aren't, it just means you can't see the influence you are having.  I hope this helps. 

Thank you for your encouraging words. 

 

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