next »

[khix]

I'm not sure if this topic belongs in this area or not.....but anyway, I'm looking for opinions about Don Piper & his book, 90 Minutes in Heaven.  Not only opinions....but solid biblically-backed reasons as to why you think or don't think this guy is legitimate.  Thanks.

[Cherika Four Seasons]

oh I LOVED that book. Imagine colours we've never even seen before? and a song made up of hundreds of melodies that we could all discern at once!
I can't give you biblically-based reasons why it's legitimate khix, except that, from what I remember, some of his decriptions seemed to line up with descriptions of heaven in revelations.
hopefully someone else has more info.

i hope he was telling thr truth 

[beauty4ashes]

An excellent documentary aired on tv a few days ago called The Lazurus Phenomenon. It deals with the same subject. You can view it here:  http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5186211187154170413 

[AndysDad]

One of the reasons I (subjectively) am convinced that it was genuine is that he didn't tell anyone about it--not even the man who prayed him back to life--until much later. Meanwhile, having been mostly dead for so long, he had a long road to recovery with an incredible amount of debilitating pain. The doctors said that they'd never seen anyone injured as bad as he was leave the hospital alive.

There was no point in him making up this experience if all it did (at first) was make him mad that he had to leave the glories of heaven to return to his broken body. But eventually he saw that God had sent him to minister to people in like circumstances and the glimpse of heaven was God's way of letting him know that he was going to recover, that it wasn't his time to go quite yet.

Andy'sDad (who would be happy to stay quite clear of the Gates until it's his time to go all the way through them)

[khix]

Thank you, everyone.

But, I have a few more questions:

1) What about Hebrews 9:27 - "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" ?   Can a man really die, come back to life, then die again?  Did Don Piper really die?  Maybe he was a coma of sorts?  Maybe he had a really amazing dream/vision?  Maybe God told that other pastor to pray for Don Piper because God knew that Don Piper wasn't really dead yet? 

2) Why would God allow more revelation of Heaven to be given?  Is the revelation given in the Bible not enough?

3) Now, I haven't read the book myself & I need to so that I can judge fairly, but I heard that there are hardly any Bible verses in his book, and that when he speaks, he hardly opens the Bible.....is this true?  Also, I heard that this man said he did not see Jesus or God in Heaven....is this true?  If so, is there a reason why someone would not see Jesus or God in Heaven?

4) Andy'sDad - are you basing your opinions on your own thoughts & reasonings or on facts from the Bible?

5) Does the Bible have anything to say about those who have claimed to die & then come back?  Does the Bible say anything about being able to die, see Heaven, & then come back?

6) Does the new Heaven exist now?  Does the new earth & new Jerusalem exist now?  All the gold & gates & stuff that the Bible describes are descriptions of the new heaven & the new Jerusalem, are they not?  If they don't exist yet, then what exactly did this man (& others who actually die) see?  How can someone see something that does not exist yet?  (did he have a vision like John had a vision in Revelation?)  What Heaven exists right now?  Does the Bible describe the Heaven that exists right now?


(Nevertheless, despite  my skepticism, the guy's story is an amazing miracle!)

[Pennie]

Luke 16:22-31

Notice specifically ver 26  and 31.

IMO b/c of these verses these are very good conmen to make people believe them.  I wonder how many people would actually get saved from hearing them.  The Bible says in verse 31:

"And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. "

[AndysDad]

1) What about Hebrews 9:27 - "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" ?   Can a man really die, come back to life, then die again?  Did Don Piper really die?  Maybe he was a coma of sorts?  Maybe he had a really amazing dream/vision?  Maybe God told that other pastor to pray for Don Piper because God knew that Don Piper wasn't really dead yet? 

In all the visions of heaven that I've read, none of the people always made it 'all the way' into heaven. They were in a 'waiting room' and were called back to earth before entering heaven itself.
No, he was really dead, certified by a medical technician. Whether in the body or out of the body we can't really say for sure (neither could Paul), but we can say for sure that he was clinically dead. And I know of other cases who were dead for several hours, long enough for the body to assume room temperature.

2) Why would God allow more revelation of Heaven to be given?  Is the revelation given in the Bible not enough?

Getting back to 2 Cor 12, it appears that God gave Paul his own personal trip to heaven. It wasn't revelation for him to pass on to us--he wasn't even allowed to talk about it, just to mention that it had happened. He doesn't even come out and admit that it was he who had it, although it must have been, otherwise he wouldn't have known about it, since the person to whom it happened hadn't been allowed to describe it.

3) Now, I haven't read the book myself & I need to so that I can judge fairly, but I heard that there are hardly any Bible verses in his book, and that when he speaks, he hardly opens the Bible.....is this true?  Also, I heard that this man said he did not see Jesus or God in Heaven....is this true?  If so, is there a reason why someone would not see Jesus or God in Heaven?

I don't see anything odd about this. I would probably expect him to at least mention 2 Cor 12, but what does the any given passage of the Bible have to do with his experience?  He was sharing a testimony, not giving a teaching.

4) Andy'sDad - are you basing your opinions on your own thoughts & reasonings or on facts from the Bible?

The former, inasmuch as the Bible doesn't give me much of any information by which to judge his experience.
 

5) Does the Bible have anything to say about those who have claimed to die & then come back?  Does the Bible say anything about being able to die, see Heaven, & then come back?

See 2 Cor 12: 1-9. This probably correlates with Acts 14:19.

6) Does the new Heaven exist now?  Does the new earth & new Jerusalem exist now?  All the gold & gates & stuff that the Bible describes are descriptions of the new heaven & the new Jerusalem, are they not?  If they don't exist yet, then what exactly did this man (& others who actually die) see?  How can someone see something that does not exist yet?  (did he have a vision like John had a vision in Revelation?)  What Heaven exists right now?  Does the Bible describe the Heaven that exists right now?

No, the Bible doesn't say anything about what Heaven is like right now--other than that for Paul, it was indescribably beyond words. Thus we are left with the testimony of others who have been there and back. We can at least get from Paul's account that this is something that can happen to a believer.

The accounts of heaven differ somewhat from one person to another. This doesn't surprise me, if even Paul couldn't put it in words.

[khix]

Thank you for answering all my questions, Andydad.   

I know it makes me seems skeptical & like I'm questioning God, but I always have to ask every question under the sun....I always have to make sure of something first....especially in this day & age where there are lot of wolves running around in sheep's clothing.

Thanks again.

[bluestripe]

An excellent documentary aired on tv a few days ago called The Lazurus Phenomenon. It deals with the same subject. You can view it here:  http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5186211187154170413 

I watched this video a couple days ago.  When I did, part of it confused me so I thought that I'd share my confusion in a question. 

In the film, the angel told the pastor that if he died, then he would go to hell.  The angel further explained that the reason that he would go to hell was because the pastor was bitter against his wife, and hadn't forgiven her for the fight which they had before he got in the car accident.  This made it seem to me as if you must earn your way to heaven by works. 

Now I know that the Bible speaks directly against that idea and instead tells that if you are a blood-bought believer in what Jesus did, then all of your sins are forgiven, past, present and future.  So, according to what the Bible says, it would seem that the bitterness or sin of the pastor would already be forgiven and that he would not have to pay the penalty of hell because Jesus had already payed for that sin.  I'm wondering how my confusion can be explained to make sense.   

To sum it up, the angel insinuates that if the pastor died with unconfessed and un-repented of sin, then he would go to hell -- as if the pastor's current sin had not been forgiven and payed for by Jesus on the cross.  But the Bible makes it clear that the pastor's sin would already have  been payed for even though the pastor didn't live long enough to actually repent of it himself. 

It seems clear that the guy really died, death certificates and all.  And he says that he had this experience.  Is it possible that the angel was a fallen angel telling him false stuff?  So can anyone logically and biblically explain my confusion? 

[bluestripe]

Bump.

[Cherika Four Seasons]

maybe it was a fallen angel...or maybe the story was false.....or just a vivid dream. then again, if he was really dead, he couldn't dream....could he?

 

[AndysDad]

Actually, angels can give a false gospel:
"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed."  --Gal. 1:8

But there's nothing false about this gospel:
"For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."
--Matt. 6:14-15

Andy'sDad

[jchthys]

Actually, angels can give a false gospel:
"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed."  --Gal. 1:8

Don’t you think that’s a contrary-to-fact, hypothetical statement? I mean, Paul certainly wouldn’t preach a false gospel, would he?
Just my thoughts.

[Amy Joy]

Did I correctly understand your opinion as it applies to bluestripe’s question then, AndysDad?  In other words,   

Taking the video at face value... that the pastor was truly born-again but happened to die while sinning (he was bitter and had not forgiven his wife for slapping him even though she wanted to mend things after their argument earlier that week), the pastor would have gone to hell for all eternity had he remained dead from that car wreck.  Is that what you meant?

To further clarify: If the believing pastor had NOT gotten into the car wreck for another month or year, or whatever, but, finally, he DID forgive her... and, then, the following week died... he would have in that case, gone to heaven.  Is that a correct conclusion/application of what you meant?

[AndysDad]

Actually, angels can give a false gospel:
"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed."  --Gal. 1:8

Don’t you think that’s a contrary-to-fact, hypothetical statement? I mean, Paul certainly wouldn’t preach a false gospel, would he?
Just my thoughts.

No, this was not a hypothetical statement, as I see it. Paul was addressing a real-life situation in which the Galatians, having been saved by faith, were trying to stay saved by works  (3:3).  He called it a false gospel (1:6-7).

Andy'sDad

[AndysDad]

Did I correctly understand your opinion as it applies to bluestripe’s question then, AndysDad?  In other words,   

Taking the video at face value... the pastor would have gone to hell for all eternity had he remained dead from that car wreck.  Is that what you meant?

1 Timothy 3: 1-5
This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.  For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;  Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

A trucebreaker is one who makes a promise and doesn't keep it. The pastor promised to love and cherish his wife when he married her (or words to that effect) and he broke that promise, and continued to break it as long as he wouldn't forgive her.

What would have happened I can't say. Obviously it was God's intention for him to forgive his wife, and this was how God chose to do it. It does seem as if he would never have come back if his wife hadn't desired it so strongly, but we still don't know what would have happened.

To further clarify: If the believing pastor had NOT gotten into the car wreck for another month or year, or whatever, but, finally, he DID forgive her... and, then, the following week died... he would have in that case, gone to heaven.  Is that a correct conclusion/application of what you meant?

Yes, that seems to be what the angel was telling him.

Andy'sDad

Advanced search

• 1 Timothy 3:16 GOD was manifest in the flesh, or the Vatican versions "he"?: Translation Questions and Discussion byandiclare (3)
• Revelation 18:20 - Bible critics and "ye holy apostles and prophets": Translation Questions and Discussion bybrandplucked (0)
• What About the 2011 NIV Old Testament?: Translation Questions and Discussion bybrandplucked (0)
• 1 Samuel 6:19 Is your Bible the 100% historical truth of God? 50,070 or 70 slain: Translation Questions and Discussion bybrandplucked (3)
• What About the new NIV 2011?: Translation Questions and Discussion bybrandplucked (2)
• Answering the Typical Anti-KJB Only sites: Translation Questions and Discussion bybrandplucked (0)
• We are Gods?: Bible Discussion bySoffi (0)
• Every Man For Himself Bible Versions: Translation Questions and Discussion bybrandplucked (0)
• Answering James White's Question - Which KJV?: Translation Questions and Discussion byAndysDad (6)

• Japanese/English Bible?: Translation & Publishing—Resources, Questions & Interaction byGarlicMomma (5)
• Beka....?: Announcements & Updates byandiclare (0)
• HELP? Hubby can't sleep (I tried to search this): Healthcare @ Home byandiclare (1)
• Where is everyone?: Nothing Deep byGarlicMomma (5)
• Introduce Yourself!: Nothing Deep bypiperjameson (325)
• The scoop on Soap: House and Home byCherika Four Seasons (1)
• Ideas: Children serving each other: Parenting byjenibee (0)
• My husband needs help with something I think is wrong: Relationships byjackiee (4)
• like minded moms?: Parenting byHomeschool_Newbie (2)
• "Courtship" discussions/questions: Relationships byHomeschool_Newbie (15)
• Announcing....: Announcements & Updates byBJ_BOBBI_JO (5)
• 80 days dream: Announcements & Updates bybasething (16)
• strabismus: Healthcare @ Home byFree Woman (10)
• Prayer Requests -- Health Related: Healthcare @ Home byBJ_BOBBI_JO (640)
• Translations in Guatemala...: Translation & Publishing—Resources, Questions & Interaction byAndysDad (5)
• Boring christian life: Sarah's Daughters byBJ_BOBBI_JO (6)
• Is this site for real?: Relationships byandiclare (2)
• Emergency food: canned or powder?: Nothing Deep byGarlicMomma (9)
• A heart issue for my children?: Parenting byandiclare (9)
• Keeping Warm, Heating Tips & Tricks: House and Home byherbalmom (60)

[Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.Did you miss your activation email?]

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

February 07, 2012, 03:56:37 PM

1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

Members

• Total Members: 6893
• Latest: ROxidRe4

Stats

• Total Posts: 243886
• Total Topics: 21906
• Online Today: 33
• Online Ever: 437
• (April 01, 2008, 03:09:36 PM)

Users Online

• Users: 0
• Guests: 27
• Total: 27