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[Amy Joy]

A topic khix opened here reminded me of the so-called Narcissistic Personality Disorder which I researched several years ago.   Over time I have read posts on a variety of 7xS boards that made me remember what I learned about this alleged disorder.      I don’t have time to dig out my box of research but the sites below may help you to recognize the “rudiments” of what goes on when you are dealing with a personality disturbed person.   

Furthermore, people often want practical ideas for what to do (and not do) when they find themselves in such a situation.  The cosmicwalk.co.za website may help with that.  Please remember that the information below is not the Bible.  So, I would take everything before the LORD and your husband.  But, at the very least, you will know that you are not alone and, no, you are not crazy.       

Characteristics of  Narcissistic Mothers

Recognizing Narcissism - Observing yourself around them

Narcissistic Personality Disorder 

Living with Abuse

Overcoming Abuse

[SC lady]

WOW,    I wish I had had that information many years ago . . .   

I once dealt with a person like this. While the individual was informally diagnosed, I didn't have any of those helps. What I found helpful in dealing with the personality came through prayer (desperate prayer).

The best way I can think of to describe this person is that he/she is living in an alternative reality where he/she is a deity around which all other things move and revolve and exist for his/her benefit. If he/she leaves a room, he/she believes there is no reason for further activity. There is no need for light or movement in a room where he/she is not dwelling. Only in his/her presence should there be life and all that life is for the purpose of bringing him/her honor. Those who disagree with this view are committing the ultimate crime/sin against this person because they are denying/robbing the deity of what he/she believes is due honor. The reason that things are wrong in this alternative reality is because those who exist for the purpose of bringing glory and honor to him/her aren't fulfilling their function. (I know, it's sick and perverse)

So if you were to ask this person why they did something, you would be guilty (in his/her mind) of daring to judge their false sense of godship (is that a word?) and subject to a display of anger. If you were to ask for help from this person, you would also incur wrath because the request (again, in his/her mind) would not be a glorification of him/her.

On the other hand, if you offered even false flattery he/she would be very inclined to accept it as truth because the flattery brought him/her glory. You would gain favor as a useful person that validates his/her fantasy.

In the presence of such a person I often found myself having to ask, 'What would I want to hear or see if I thought I were the center of the universe?' The answer to that question often held the key to escape to a safer place. . . . and these people can be dangerous when crossed.

Of course, these were skills I gained before I understood my place in Christ. If I knew then what I know now (famous words) I think that the experience would not have been such a trauma/drama. [Edited to clarify: This experience was not one of subjecting children to the disturbed person. The trauma/drama I referenced was my own inability to comprehend the inner-workings of such a person. Knowing Christ has given me a new perspective on myself and others such that this would not have been such a 'wild ride.']

[khix]

Again, thanks for all this info!

My questions are:

Since my mom only has about 50% of the characteristics, does that mean she is not narcissistic?  Is narcissism a condition of faulty brain chemistry, or is it a learned/coping behavior?  Should someone who is narcissistic be told that they are so?  Or, is the label simply meant to help others understand why someone behaves the way they do?  But, does giving someone a label sort of relieve them of responsibility for their actions?  (More of the "Oh, well, that's the way I am, I just can't help it" syndrome?)  Can narcissistic people see their faults & change?  Is narcissism a sin issue?

[mom27]

Thank you so much for the good information. I have only recently heard of many people being narcissistic, though I had seldom heard the word even used before except in connection to myths. It makes me think of the verse..."in the last days men shall be lover's of their ownselves" and wonder if that is why the word is popping up so much lately.   I have heard that some of our government officials suffer from this disorder and it makes me realize all the more why we need to continue faithful in prayer for those in authority over us. After reading the links I did not come away with a lot of hope for a break through to a person with this "sickness", but of course we know that through Christ it is possible.

[khix]

Also, any idea how narcissistic characteristics would play out in the grandmother role?

[khix]

Also, any idea how narcissistic characteristics would play out in the grandmother role?

I think I have at least one answer to this question.

According to the link, narcissistic mothers have a "golden" child, a favorite (who can do no wrong), and a "scapegoat" child.  I think this tendency also spills over into a grandmother role as well....what do ya'll think?

[denim&lace]

Khix, Yes.  In our experience Grandma favors one child and demeans another.  Or favors a few and demeans (in our case so far) one in particular.  I had never had a label to put on the behaviors, but this list almost seems like they used MIL for a case study.
 
I appreciate all those links.  That has been very, very revealing.  Now, what to do with this information, I don't know yet.
   

[Amy Joy]

One reader asked awhile back if I would fix the link in my Opening Post (OP) titled Characteristics of  Narcissistic Mothers since the geocities link had expired.  I did so but was notified recently that there were only 24 characteristics on the new link instead of 25.  (Thanks for the heads-up.)  So, I re-linked another source today and it should be correct now.   

[Amy Joy]

In my opinion, whether we understand our place in Christ or not, the abuse and drama that come at us from the disordered person are both very traumatic and quite damaging (maybe even dangerous to us and our children).   

Therefore, I thought I would post links which touch on some of the questions khix asked months ago, starting with this question:

Also, any idea how narcissistic characteristics would play out in the grandmother role?

Narcissistic Grandparents

The Narcissist as a Grandparent

[Amy Joy]

Can narcissistic people see their faults & change?

   
Will your abuser change?

Malignant Narcissism - Brief Overview

[Monita]

I've been looking into the links on this thread and was wondering if it is hereditary in your experience?   

Also, what is the best way to deal with these people when you still live with them (mom, grandma)?   Are there basic rules of thumb that help you when you are around them (boss, family member) or live with them?

[Amy Joy]

Also, what is the best way to deal with these people when you still live with them (mom, grandma)?   Are there basic rules of thumb that help you when you are around them (boss, family member) or live with them?

Hi Monita,

One thing that may help is this: "Don't JADE."  I do not know who came up with the acronym for this "rule of thumb," but the idea is do not justify, argue, defend or explain.  Just do what you have to do and go confidently about your business.  When you justify, argue, defend or explain, no matter how nicely, it gets you nowhere with the personality disordered.  Unlike normal people, the personality disordered hear only what they want to hear.  They can turn anything you say (or write) into something "different" when you're talking with them or later on.  They may even get others involved over "what you said," so as to manipulate or malign.     

Below are some other ideas for "rules of thumb" that may help if you live with, work with or are around people like this.  Please remember that the information linked below is not the Bible.  So, I would take everything before the LORD and your husband.  But, at the very least, you will have some practical helps to consider when you find yourself in difficult situations.   

Ten Rules for Dealing with the Narcissist in Your Office

How to Relate to the Badly Behaving and Other Questions

[Amy Joy]

The woman on this thread may have had a lifetime of experience in trying (and failing) to be able to explain to herself (and others) about how and why her  situation is very different from "normal people problems."

My Parents Don't Like Me

[Monita]

From the time I was very little I can remember not liking my aunt....I just felt like she was evil and I did not trust her.  If she offered to "help" me with anything I knew that their was strings attached and I would stay away from her as much as possible.   As for my mom though, she was not wanting to see what I saw and would excuse her behavior and put up with it because that was her sister and she felt she had to I guess.  Same with my cousin, my aunts dd, that was her mom and she believed she needed to honor her.    I grew up watching my aunt hurt them by telling lies about them to the family, by stealing from them manipulating them, putting them down with criticism all veiled with sweetness and care for them.    Now that my cousin is married and has 2 children, my aunt has continued her abuse.  She has called CPS on them and meddles in their family trying to control them.  She now has been living with my mom for over a year and my mom feels like she is going crazy, literally. 

So, after reading this thread I knew that this was what they were dealing with, narcissism.   I hoped for a time and way to talk to them about this and Praise God I was able to share it this week!  My mom called me this week crying about the horrible thoughts and feeling she was having toward my aunt.  I shared the info in this thread with my mom and she realized for the first time that my aunt had a problem that has nothing to do with mom.  My mom felt so much peace from the info. here, yet saddened for my aunt.  Then today my cousin called and sounded upset.  She revealed that again her mom had hurt her and that she just does not know why her mom keeps doing this.  I shared with her the info here and she too felt so blessed and relieved yet saddened that her mom did have a problem that my cousin could not fix.

I was happy that the info from this thread helped them get peace about what they are going through with my aunt but it is hard to say what will happen now.  I am praying for them to read all of the information about this disorder and pray about what they should do.  Just wanted to say thank you very much for this thread because we may not have learned of this otherwise.
 
Thank you !

[denim&lace]

Monita, thank you for sharing.

I've had a similar experience this past week dealing with a person with NPD and the info from this thread helping.     It was related to the other incident I talked about on the discernment thread and knowing the information from this thread helped us (my dh and I) to understand how to deal with it.

So glad this thread was opened.  It has helped our family tremendously.   

[lovetoreadmom]

Is narcissism a sin issue?

Phil. 2:3 - "[Let] nothing [be done] through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves."

IMO this verse, which I believe is a command, would answer that question. 

[Beth]

Is narcissism a sin issue?

Phil. 2:3 - "[Let] nothing [be done] through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves."

IMO this verse, which I believe is a command, would answer that question. 

yep, I would agree. I think it really isn't a disorder but a sin out of control.

* wanted to add...that many of the ways you would deal with this sin issue in someone's life would be the same....just calling it what I think it really is self-centeredness and the need to in be total control of the people in one's life through any means available, including manipulation, lies, etc.
I guess you could liken it to someone with the lack of moderation....you either get gluttony or drunkeness....not a disease still a sin, but there are ways to deal with people who have this in their lives. Some ways are effective to help the person change or at the very least deal with them in such a way as to make life bearable for yourself and those around you.
So, I was not negating any advice given on this thread, just saying that I really think it isn't a permanent mental disorder but a sin gone to it's ultimate end....JMO however.

[denim&lace]

Is narcissism a sin issue?

Phil. 2:3 - "[Let] nothing [be done] through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves."

IMO this verse, which I believe is a command, would answer that question. 

yep, I would agree. I think it really isn't a disorder but a sin out of control.

* wanted to add...that many of the ways you would deal with this sin issue in someone's life would be the same....just calling it what I think it really is self-centeredness and the need to in be total control of the people in one's life through any means available, including manipulation, lies, etc.
I guess you could liken it to someone with the lack of moderation....you either get gluttony or drunkeness....not a disease still a sin, but there are ways to deal with people who have this in their lives. Some ways are effective to help the person change or at the very least deal with them in such a way as to make life bearable for yourself and those around you.
So, I was not negating any advice given on this thread, just saying that I really think it isn't a permanent mental disorder but a sin gone to it's ultimate end....JMO however.

I completely agree with this assessment, Beth. 

[Amy Joy]

Monita and denim&lace, thanks for posting.  I was glad to read that some help was found for the difficult situations you wrote about.  I also think lovetoreadmom and Beth are correct in their observations that what we are dealing with here, in these situations, is sin, gone to its final or most extreme and possibly terminal end. 

Anna Valerious writes several posts from the perspective of a believer who came to terms with the fact that malignant NPD is not a disorder or a disease, but sin.  While she does not put herself forward as a "Bible teacher," she does, in the course of sharing her own thoughts on this subject, address her take on scripture as she feels it relates to the topic of NPD, so called.

The links below are in reverse order, with the newest articles on top.  Perhaps some of these writings of Anna Valerious will be of use to readers here. 

No Contact: Because their Evil is Contagious
Examining Freud
Refresher on the Savior Complex
As Per Request...
Not all Enemies are Created Equal
From Such Turn Away
Testing for Repentance
Is it Wrong to Hate?
Voice of God or the Devil -- The Exposé
"A Wicked Man"
Armor Up
An Article: Spiritual Abuse
When Good is Bad
Two models of Family
The Christian and the Fifth Commandment - Part 2
The Christian and the Fifth Commandment - Part 1
Recommended Website and Book

[Amy Joy]

I've been looking into the links on this thread and was wondering if it is hereditary in your experience? 

There is much debate over this question. 

In my experience, the answer is likely yes and no.  There's an older married couple I know where one parent is calculatingly destructive in the expression of his/her narcissistic qualities (evil) while the other parent is just childlike and painfully selfish.  But, both exhibit extreme "narcissism."  Half of their children are not malignant narcissists (excuse the terminology, please) but the other half are.  The narcissistic children, I believe, are all replicating this same evil into the character and soul of some of their own children -- some, but not all. 

Why it was that some of the now adult children rejected narcissistic wickedness and some embraced it for their own, I do not know.  They are all close in age and were were raised similarly.  Not all were scapegoats and not all were golden children. 

I think, as Anna Valerious said in one of her articles linked above, evil is contagious... but each soul has the choice to embrace or reject it.             

[Amy Joy]

There is one thing which seems exceedingly strange to me as I observe this family, the one that I wrote about above: 

One of the adult children sees the evil of her parents, and she can describe it in words that anyone who has read this thread and its links would recognize.  Yet this same woman is 100% blind to the fact that she is doing to her own family, friends, coworkers, church family, and acquaintances the exact same thing she describes.  She cannot see this about herself, even when confronted with facts.  Which is remarkable to me - an absolutely remarkable phenomenon!  At this point, I do not understand why this would happen... nor have I seen this particular phenomenon addressed by others who write on the topic of NPD.   

[lovetoreadmom]

May I just suggest here that Satan is blinding her to her own sin.  He does do that, I believe.  Many times we can see things in others that are clearly problems we struggle with, but we don't see those things in ourselves b/c of how the Bible describes our heart in Jer. 17:9 - "The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?"

Just my $.02.

[Amy Joy]

That was a valuable "2¢ Worth," lovetoreadmom!  Maybe Satan is blinding her.  Your verses about the heart were right on the money IMO.  Also, here's another "2¢ Worth" to add to the pot:  I wondered if God himself had given her up unto it, finally. 

One thing is certain about our combined 4¢ Worth:  The level of blindness, "hardness," or self-deception in the case of the woman I wrote about causes her to sound sane and rational when she is analyzing or describing the bad behavior of her own parents.  But, then, she sounds surreal and bizarre to her children when she defends and explains away her own behaviors toward them or others, behaviors which are identical to those she critiqued.  It's just the strangest thing that can take place in all of one conversation.  Crazy-making! 

[Beth]

Thanks for posting those links to Anna Valerious the ones I have read so far are really informative.
No, I would say I have never run into anyone that I know who is completely given over to this sin. I have however had some very controlling and manipulative women who were my friends. It seemed a pattern to me for a while.... I had to get on top of this and realize it and make it stop!
I think like any sin there are different levels, as in some people are more given over to the sin than others. I think it starts with selfishness and the need to control. God is ultimately the one in control and there are times that all we can do is let go.... for some that time just never comes. As time goes on I can see how these sins only get worse....    
The thing I remember about one friend in particular, was the ability to make you look bad in the guise of "prayer requests".... as in, we really need to pray for Beth, she's ______. It really wasn't meant as a prayer request but as a way to make me look bad to others. (ones she felt would help her in her control)
Anyway the links are helpful. Thanks.

[Amy Joy]

You're welcome Beth.  I was just re-writing a post that I think you responded to.  Here is the re-writtten post.  It's out of order now, ah, well. 

I think I should clarify that, when I wrote about the woman above, I was not describing the "normal blindness" of a "normal woman" to her own sin.

I do not know whether you ladies (lovetoreadmom and Beth), or any others reading here aside from khix, Monita, and denim&lace, have had personal experience with the type of soul being discussed on this thread.  If you have not, then all I can say is that you are blessed beyond description and that it is possible you might not have the "equipment" needed to fully appreciate or understand the viewpoints and problems expressed on this thread.  Praise God for that, if it is so!

Anyway, when someone has not had previous dealings with this type of soul, I believe it would be customary to apply "normal-people" problem-solving skills or analysis to these situations.  But, believe me, the people described on this thread are not normal!!  And, they will not respond to approaches you could use with "normal," sinning people. 

In sum, I wish to God that no one would ever have to understand any of the stuff on this thread!       

[Beth]

I'm not sure if I know someone who could, shall we say "legally"    be called narcissistic but certainly many of the same sin issues and tendencies are there...so this thread has been helpful. Especially some of the links you have posted to Anna Valerious. As I said I think there are levels to this particular sin.
Just as in alcoholism....there are problem drinkers, there are binge drinkers and there are full blown alcoholics....same sin, just different depths of miring in the pit so to say. Many of the ways to deal with them are the same. I would never discourage anyone who is only dealing with a problem drinker from informing themselves of ways in which to help or deal with this sort of person. They might actually stop the progression. God's Grace reaches all....Even the full blown NPD or the skid row alcoholic! Praise the Lord.
Thanks again.

[lovetoreadmom]

I agree it is hard to understand it.  My SIL can be very much like this.  She will be so offended if you try to help her with anything, but then be equally offended if you don't accept her help as she whines, "I was only trying to help."  We keep a safe distance, but we also try our best to extend the love of Christ to her when inneraction does occur. 

I agree with Beth, there are definitely different degrees.  I think my SIL's narcissism is mild compared to many with this problem, and she has never been "officially diagnsed," but then I don't believe the official part is necessary to see a person's (or even our own) sin problem.    The Bible does a pretty good job of taking care of that. 

[denim&lace]

Beth and LTRM... my experience with narcissists is that they are seldom 'legal' or 'officially diagnosed' because they will only continue going to a therapist or counselor if that therapist feeds their selfishness.  Once a therapist says, "OK... let's deal with the fact that YOU are the one consistent factor in all of these broken relationships..." the narcissist is off to find a 'better doctor',  'someone they click with'.

I have been reading a couple of the blog posts that were linked (Anna Valerious) and the lady is marvelously talented at writing on the subject.  The post about going No Contact was helpful to me today. 

[lovetoreadmom]

Makes sense, D&L.  I agree with you - the selfish behaviour is only perpetuated by moving from relationship to relationship, whether it be personal or professionsal.  How sad!   

[Amy Joy]

This email arrived to my inbox this morning from a member I will call "Melissa." 

Hi,
 
Just what I needed again.  To the point of tears.  Just confirmed to me of what is probably going on in the situation I was trying to sort out this morning in an e-mail to "Lady Official Worker."  Your following quote from the NPD thread just confirmed to me of what I was thinking this morning -- that life for her has probably been too normal for her to understand what it is that I am trying to say in regards to this case.

Anyway, when someone has not had previous dealings with this type of soul, I believe it would be customary to apply "normal-people" problem-solving skills or analysis to these situations.  But, believe me, the people described on this thread are not normal!!  And, they will not respond to approaches you could use with "normal," sinning people. 
 

Thanks again - still praying for you,
Melissa

In the past, Melissa asked if I could somehow share her story anonymously on 7xSunday because there was a desperate need for prayer over her life and the lives of her children.  But her situation needed to stay discreet and I had not felt peace about posting anything until today.

For now, I will say this much:  Melissa is married to a man who once ministered many years in an official capacity under the umbrella of a recognized Bible denomination.  For ease of reference, he can be described as a "malignant NPD" type of soul.  He is no longer living with Melissa and their children but there has been no relief from difficulties since he left their house.  Instead, the games have actually stepped-up. 

Melissa and the children, some grown and some little, need prayer for protection and wisdom as she seeks God's direction to her and asks for his intervention on her behalf.  Perhaps the Lord will bring Melissa to mind today and in the future, and perhaps some will pray. 

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