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[Amy Joy]

I'd add here that Mom was not Grandma's favorite child either.  The uncle was.  But, that's just how messed up things were since he's the one that left.

Even "golden children" are not exempt, ultimately, from the cruelties of the malignant narcissist.  One day, the golden child's turn will come and, looking back, they'll see the abuse of them that was there all along. 

In the large family I wrote about on page one, the Primary Golden Child left in her 40's because she finally saw that she was nothing more than a tool being used by her parents to sow discord and pain into the lives of siblings whom she loved.  The kids were all adults by that time, but the golden child had been used thusly since childhood, primarily by her mother.  Although the tactics used on the golden child were "different" and seemingly more pleasant or rewarding to experience, she saw clearly that much damage had been done to her own soul and to her relationships with others she cared about. 

Furthermore, the life path of high success that this golden child thought she had chosen for herself was, in reality, a manipulated thing brought about by her parents to bring them glory.  She saw that her "success" was just one result of her parents' cloaked meanness and destructiveness in the lives of all their children.

[Amy Joy]

Email from "Bonnie:"

One final thing, if I may. On the NPD thread I was just wondering what happened to the Primary Golden child after she left? How did her parents handle the change?

Not only did the golden child withdraw to very low contact with her narcissistic parents but also she left the "high life of success" that they were so proud of. 

When the golden child was no longer "successful" in ways that were meaningful to her narcissistic parents, she and her husband (and their kids) became the targets of criticism and emotional abuse.  The NPD parents told others how concerned they were and alarmed by their son-in-law's leading of his family.  They said that the former golden child and her husband were now a shame and embarrassment to the family of origin, and to God.  They said they were alarmed by what was happening, they did not understand why their daughter and her husband refused to honor God anymore with their lives.  They said the former golden daughter was now on a weird path. 

A younger adult sister in the family had always been driven to match the success and exceed the flair of the Primary Golden Child.  This married woman became her parents' New Golden Child, for she embodied the image of what they wanted themselves to be represented to be.  The new golden child and her husband worked hard to make their narcissistic parents "known in the gates" of their little universe, bringing glory and honor to them always -- but at what price is yet to be seen.  Currently, the children of the new golden daughter have received "favorite grandchildren status."

Other adult children in the family of origin are kept in line by what they observe.  They know that if they behave well, they won't be treated and publicly scorned like the former golden child.  If they play their cards right, maybe they will one day achieve the favor and recognition that is now being accorded to the new golden child and her family. 

These manipulations are subtle, secretive and very powerful.  They are quite effective in the management of the narcissistic parents' universe.   

The Former Primary Golden Child told me she has no regrets other than wishing she had done it sooner. 

[AndysJess]

Email from "Bonnie:"

One final thing, if I may. On the NPD thread I was just wondering what happened to the Primary Golden child after she left? How did her parents handle the change?

Not only did the golden child withdraw to very low contact with her narcissistic parents but also she left the "high life of success" that they were so proud of. 

When the golden child was no longer "successful" in ways that were meaningful to her narcissistic parents, she and her husband (and their kids) became the targets of criticism and emotional abuse.  The NPD parents told others how concerned they were and alarmed by their son-in-law's leading of his family.  They said that the former golden child and her husband were now a shame and embarrassment to the family of origin, and to God.  They said they were alarmed by what was happening, they did not understand why their daughter and her husband refused to honor God anymore with their lives.  They said the former golden daughter was now on a weird path. 

A younger adult sister in the family had always been driven to match the success and exceed the flair of the Primary Golden Child.  This married woman became her parents' New Golden Child, for she embodied the image of what they wanted themselves to be represented to be.  The new golden child and her husband worked hard to make their narcissistic parents "known in the gates" of their little universe, bringing glory and honor to them always -- but at what price is yet to be seen.  Currently, the children of the new golden daughter have received "favorite grandchildren status."

Other adult children in the family of origin are kept in line by what they observe.  They know that if they behave well, they won't be treated and publicly scorned like the former golden child.  If they play their cards right, maybe they will one day achieve the favor and recognition that is now being accorded to the new golden child and her family. 

These manipulations are subtle, secretive and very powerful.  They are quite effective in the management of the narcissistic parents' universe.   

The Former Primary Golden Child told me she has no regrets other than wishing she had done it sooner. 

Oh GAG!!  This all sounds so much like my in-laws it makes me want to vomit!  My husband's younger sister is their golden child.  This suits her very well, because she tends to be narcissistic as well.  It's ALWAYS been that way...it's just become more so lately because my husband has chosen to leave the church organization he and I were both raised in and is following a different path.  His parents have tried and tried to use our children to manipulate us to the point where my husband has finally cut off most contact with them.  The last time we were at their house last winter, the undercurrents of tension and manipulativeness were so strong I was sick the whole time. 

I don't know if or when my husband will ever resume a normal relationship with them.  It's just so stressful, and they don't recognize boundaries where our children are concerned.  Yuck!  I hate family problems!!!

[servantgirl]

I noticed that may people posting here mention knowing females with these self-centered issues. Does it seem to be a predominately female problem? Will males present differently?

It seems that people are encouraged to minimize contact with the people who have these issues. What should a woman do if her husband is like this? I think I know a man with a self-centered disorder. He's not severely bad yet, but it's been getting worse. The wife is going crazy, she has no idea what to do. She does her best to make him happy, but he only gets angrier, and the whole family is  miserable.

[Amy Joy]

Most of the literature I have read says that there are way more males than females with this problem.  However, I personally believe it is more like a 50/50 split.  I could be wrong in this, though.

Do males present differently?  That is a good question.  In my observation, the "descriptors" are always the same across both sexes.  Each individual walks out those descriptors in their own way but the traits and behaviors vary little.  Did that address your question?  Maybe if there were specific examples of what you are wondering about, I could better address it.  One thing that comes to mind is this:  Where there are biblical or cultural beliefs that the husband is head of the woman, a man with this "disorder" would have a heyday!  With nothing to "hold him back," his cruelties could take on some most unusual or vigorous forms. 

What should a woman do if her husband is like this?  Oh, my, that is another good but difficult question - a heartbreaking circumstance.  This is something Melissa is wrestling with currently.  I think the first thing such a woman should do is to read up on the subject.  She will learn things to give her some perspective and "tools" for handling difficult situations with this type of man.  Above all, she will know that she is not crazy, and that she is not alone in this.  By educating herself, she likely will also be able to help her children not to be affected in a permanently-damaging way by their father.

I think I should mention here who NOT to read:  Dr. Sam Vaknin, a self-proclaimed NPD.  He has a website, book, and several chat forums that operate under various names and under his umbrella.  My personal opinion is that he is a fraud and that his materials are actually harmful.  I would also avoid NPD chat forums altogether - they can be dangerous, in my opinion.  I think there is maybe one good chat forum, but only one that I am aware of.

The links I have posted thus far on this thread are a good place for the wife to start reading.  I will likely post a few others, at some point, for those who wish to conduct in depth research from additional sources.

[Cherika Four Seasons]

I meant to reply to this thread earlier....thanks for answering my post.
I shared some of the info in this thread with my mum and she was thankful for the understanding. She was surprised how accurately the descriptions of narcissism were to her mother.

[blessedwife]

Wow... I started reading this thread just out of mild curiosity and now feel like I've been hit head-on by a semi.  Somewhere on this forum (a few years ago) I posted about my own mother. (Under "problem grandmother," I believe).  Anyway, after reading through many of the links that Amy Joy has provided, I am now realizing that my own very complicated/confusing/guilt-ridden feelings that I have had about my own mother (since about age 2-3) are not my fault.  Guilt:  because I have never been able to understand just WHY I have always been so reluctant to let my mother KNOW me.  After all, she is such a "sweet" woman, always telling me how much she loves me and how smart I am.  She has never physically abused me.  She was always a "good" mother.  Hers is a peculiarly subtle form of narcissism.  My father had always been the "mean" parent, the one that she tried so "desperately" to protect us from.  My heart is so heavy right now...  all of these years believing that it has been my own defectiveness emotionally that has driven my mother away, when in fact, my mother does not truly love me.  Its seems rather ironic to me that for YEARS those close to me have asked "Why does your mom not care about/hate you?"  HUH?!  I would answer... What are you talking about?  It's only now, through the eyes and independent observation of my husband that I have come to BEGIN to really SEE reality.  But what scares me now is stepping back and observing the kind of mother that I am being to my own children-- far too controlling in many ways.  How, oh how, Lord, am I to be a good mother to my children?  What does a good mother even look like?  I feel like I need some detailed, concrete example of one.  Like a character in a novel... something to read through slowly and meditate upon. (KWIM?)  ~blessedwife

[ForeverGirl]

blessedwife!

Remember who your God is! It is He that made you... and He made you in His image. He has also given His Spirit to "guide us unto all truth" and to comfort and teach... You have EVERYTHING going for you. EVERYTHING that is good and holy and that matters. Just because this thread has labeled your mother, it doesn't mean that this thread sums her up. Or you. Let God define you. Let Him define her too.

You wanted examples. Read about Hannah. Read about Mary the mother of Jesus. Read about the mother of Moses and read Titus 2. Plus the Proverbs... you have so many examples of faith and obedience to God. It's not about saying the right words... it's about loving God with all your heart, mind, and strength and your neighbor/your kids as yourself.

I know you'll do fine.

love,

Beka

[Amy Joy]

... It seems rather ironic to me that for YEARS those close to me have asked "Why does your mom not care about/hate you?"  HUH?!  I would answer... What are you talking about? [....]  It's only now, through the eyes and independent observation of my husband that I have come to BEGIN to really SEE reality.

 

IMO, paying attention to your husband's take on this matter will be the right thing to do while you are processing the reality of what you are just now beginning to see about your mom. Especially since your own husband and his independent observations just so happen to jive with what other people close to you have been saying for years.  He's got your back, it looks like!     
         

But what scares me now is stepping back and observing the kind of mother that I am being to my own children-- far too controlling in many ways.  How, oh how, Lord, am I to be a good mother to my children?  What does a good mother even look like?  I feel like I need some detailed, concrete example of one.  Like a character in a novel... something to read through slowly and meditate upon. (KWIM?)  ~blessedwife

 
Please don't worry; yours is a completely normal reaction to be having right now.  Every adult woman I know personally, and those whose writing I have read, goes through the same thing when first coming to grips with "the reality."  You'll come through it fine, you'll see!  The fact that you are concerned about your own mothering is a very good and promising sign.    

Good mothers can be observed in the scriptures.  Good mothers are out there in real life, too!   Ask God to show or introduce you to a good mom or two in your immediate vicinity.  Pray for wisdom, protection, and for your children and husband.  Above all, pray, pray, pray. 

I also think memorizing Philippians 4:6-9 will do wonders for you.  Definitely Proverbs.  My DH loves Proverbs to guide in life!  I also think falling in love (all over again) with God's Word will do wonders - renewing the mind and ordering your steps.

Cheers     

[blessedwife]

Thank you ladies  Your responses have both been encouraging. 

[lovetoreadmom]

Thank you ladies  Your responses have both been encouraging. 

I'll ditto this "thank you."  I understand the feelings of inadequacy, even if it's not related directly to NPD.  The Lord has really been encouraging me through His Word, as I prayed last night over my daughter and our relationship.  God is soooooo good to show us when we ask Him. 

[Amy Joy]

You are welcome.

I've been thinking about how adult children of NPD parents (who are NOT narcissists themselves) do tend to step back and notice the kind of parent they are being to their own children.  Often, this activity can set off alarm bells.  "Oh, no!  Am I doing what SHE or he did?  Am I being a lot like her or him?  Ugh, help!"     

Most healthy parents exhibit "narcissistic traits" from time to time.  That is normal.  Unlike genuine malignant NPDs, however, healthy parents change once they perceive something inappropriate about themselves, or when someone else brings it to their attention.  They might not like hearing about it, and it might not be easy for them to consider, but they won't remain defensive, refuse to see it, or get into a rage about it. 

Children of malignant narcissists frequently pick up some bad narcissistic traits of their own because children learn how to relate from their parents.  Some adult children (who are NOT narcissists themselves) did indeed learn some very sinful behaviors and thought patterns from severely disordered or wicked parents.  As a word picture, these sinful doings might be thought of as fleas that you picked up by being in the NPD household.

Adult children with fleas from their upbringing accept that people will question or challenge them from time to time.  They will thoughtfully consider the complaints from another person and, most importantly, they will listen to their own conscience as they reflect back on their behavior.  An authentic narcissist, however, simply does not have this ability (or desire) to recognize that their behavior could be wrong; consequently, they also do not have the ability (or desire) to change it.   

Since fleas are merely the inappropriate narcissistic traits that "jumped onto you" when living with, interacting with, and learning from the NPD parent, you can PUT THEM OFF.  Unlike the narcissistic parent, you, the adult child, will recognise that certain behaviors are wrong, you will want to change, and you will have the ability to change. 

Conscientious unbelievers of NPD parents do this all the time and they experience victory.  How much more, then, is victory assured to the believer!  You, who belong to Christ, who are in dwelt by the Holy Spirit of God, and who are taught of him through the scriptures... you are more than able to PUT THEM OFF.  This is really good news, I think!       

In sum, I don't know who coined the expression, fleas.  But I liked the simplicity of this "word picture," and I thought it might be of encouragement to someone out there. 

[blessedwife]

After having several days to think about all of this stuff, I am now finding myself rather relieved. Like a burden has been lifted from me.  In fact, at times I am almost joyful!  I'm not sure if this is an appropriate response, but something within me has changed.  About 4-5 days ago I was on the verge of a mild mental breakdown, so heavily burdened with thoughts of mom (this was before I was introduced to NPD).  I locked myself in the bathroom and cried out (quietly, for fear of upsetting the kids) for Jesus to PLEASE take this "thing" from me.  It was like having an animal with it's claws in my back, and I was totally unable to wrench myself from it. 
Now, I am free.  Was the Lord's work?  I am cautiously optimistic.  I guess time will tell.  But in any case, there is something that I feel compelled to share.

Like I shared before, I have always had this sense of distrust when it came to being intimate with my mother.  Yes, she used to snoop in my diary when I was a child (and continued to do so when I was an adult as well) but the real reason for my actions I could never pinpoint.  In fact, I would  just feel guilty.  I mean, this was my MOM.  She loved me, right?  My younger sister, on the other hand, was a TOTAL mommy girl.  She was very attached to her-- something I found annoying, but it's normal to be annoyed with your little sister, right?

As the years went by, the relationship between sister and mom remained tight.  Then at some point, mom started pressuring me more and more to "confide" in her.  She would tearfully and oh-so-compassionately plead with me.  How much she cared about me and how desperately she wanted a close relationship with me.  She brought me to some Co-dependents Anonymous meetings with her, desperately trying to convince me that I needed therapy, that my father's cruelty had damaged me.  So I went to these pathetic meetings, met with some psychotherapists, etc.  She had me convinced that all of my problems were my father's fault. (Yes, he was cruel, but somehow... something just didn't seem right.)   So I travelled the road of psychology which led to the road of New Ageism/Buddhism/Wicca.  (PLease keep in mind, I was raised in a "Christian" home. )  In short, I was a TOTAL mess.  I became a feminist, determined that no man would ever rule me. My mother, in turn, was "devastated" by the way that I had turned out.  This (in addition to other things) drove her to more "counseling".
I'll spare any further ugly details, but let's just say that God is SO GOOD to have saved me.  He drew me to himself so gently... what an amazing and beautiful Savior. 

Back to my sister.  She continued to share a very, very close relationship with mom.  I began to draw closer to Dad.  Without any words exchanged between us, our relationship (Dad and I) began to improve.  I helped him at his restaurant (no one else would, he was pretty difficult to deal with).  Things were not perfect, but my perspective began to change.  Something just was not right with mom.    Anyway, my sister the Golden Girl began to tarnish in the eyes of mom.  She (my sister) needed some wiggle room.  Mom did  not seem to like that.  The more my sister resisted, the more cruel my mom became.  Yes, my sister had some "issues":  a disastrous parenting style, NO sense of organization, emotional outbursts.   When my sister objected to my mother's sharing VERY personal things with her (details about my mother's s*x life, for instance) my mom would get both defensive and very upset, crying, saying that she needed SOMEONE to talk to.  (By this time, my father had passed away and my mom was remarried.)  My sister then developed lupus and became pretty ill.  Still mom came by and both "shared" her life with her and continued with the nagging.  Then my sister became pregnant.  She already had 3 children, and the lupus was in a major flare.  The doctors told her that the best thing for her to do would be to abort the baby.  Now, by this time, I had surrendered to the Lord and my husband and I were beginning a family of our own.  During this time of indecision, I pleaded with my sister to let the baby live.  This was a BABY!   Mom, on the other hand, pleaded the opposite.  A few weeks went by and I called my sister on the phone.  I asked her how she was doing with the pregnancy. "I lost it," she replied.  I didn't pursue the conversation. (She had had a couple of miscarriages in the past, so I just figured she had had another.) 

Fast forward 2 years.  My sister convinced her husband that they had to move out of state so that he could get a better job.  They did.  Mom was very upset.  Her confidant/victim was no longer within arms length. She flew out to visit my sister several times a year.  She made my sister's family absolutely miserable each time.  My brother-in-law threatened several times to never allow her in the house again.  But he caved every time.  They were in constant financial turmoil, and Guess Who was always able to bail them out. 

About a year later I was in a restaurant with mom (Mother's Day).  I was trying to find neutral, superficial topics of conversation to make the time pass peacefully.  Then the topic of my sister came up.  I don't remember what led to it, but the words came out of my mom's mouth:  sigh... "I don't know if she's ever going to get over that abortion."  I could feel the blood drain from my face.  I was utterly speechless.  "I told her not to worry about it,"  she continued.  "I told her that I take responsibility for it.  I mean, I'm the one who took her there to have it done."  I was trying to detect some fiber of a sense of guilt in her voice.  Did she REALLY believe that SHE could take the responsibility upon herself and that my sister had NO reason to feel "bad"?!  It was like my sister was not even her own person-- more like an appendage of mother.  I felt like I had been kicked in the stomach.  I nearly started crying right there in the middle of the restaurant.  My mind suddenly flashed back to a conversation I had had with my mom during the time of my sister's pregnancy.  Mom had told me that she thought the best thing would be for her to "lose" the baby.  (She said this in a very compassionate, concerned, loving voice.)  I then replied, "But mom, IT"S A BABY!!!"  My mom snarled back:  "WELL _______, THAT BABY COULD KILL HER!!"  End of conversation.

Enter the present day.  My sister is a TOTAL mess.  The lupus is worse.  Her kids are on the cusp of adolescence and I see trouble on the horizon.  Her relationship with her husband is strained (at best.)  My sister is smoking like a chimney and drinking (probably every day.)  She no longer calls.  I send her birthday cards, Christmas cards, gifts for the kids.  Nothing. 

I pray for my sister and her family every day.  It is true that she and I have had a rocky relationship, but I can see now that my mother has orchestrated so much of this mess. 

My mother lives about 3 miles away from us.  Things have been mostly tolerable.  I pursue pleasant, superficial conversation.  (Which annoys her--- she wants to know how I REALLY am.)  But I know that she understands that if she wants any kind of relationship with me, it must be on my terms.  I am both gracious and respectful to her.  Get-togethers are not too long, and largely pleasant.  (The kids are a good distraction.)  But I am also very protective of my children with her.   I do not gossip with her.  I steer the conversation.  She is on her best behavior.  (Even better when my DH is around ) 

But what has changed for me this past week is that I no longer feel responsible for her feelings toward me.  I have been set free of this!  I now clearly see that it does not matter how hard I try with her, it will never be good enough.  I look at my sister and see what is at the core of a close relationship with mom:  destruction.  My mom is, in a sense, a sick woman.  She has been since she was a child.  She is beyond human help.  She needs Jesus.  She claims to be a believer.  Only the Lord knows.  In the meantime, my only responsibility in the eyes of God is to treat her respectfully and with grace.  Her "hurt feelings" and "loneliness" are not my responsibility.  Thank you, Jesus. 

[Amy Joy]

I think I will respond more later on but, in the meantime, just wanted to say that I can only praise God for his hand of protection over you all these years... and for setting you free this week from a lifelong and crushing burden regarding your mom.

Sending you a cyber hug today...     

[Amy Joy]

When my sister objected to my mother's sharing VERY personal things with her (details about my mother's s*x life, for instance) my mom would get both defensive and very upset, crying, saying that she needed SOMEONE to talk to.

 
Oh, dear!  Well, it has been observed that inappropriate parent-child communication regarding the parent's sexual life is common (though not universal) with NPDs.  Narcissists' sexual behavior (reputed or real) is often just one further means of being "admired" by others, in her or his mind. 

Parents who brag (or complain) to their own child about their sex life are perverse IMO.    The child likely feels confused, torn or humiliated knowing about these types of intimate things.  Yet, if the child complains, the narcissist may claim it is really she or he who has been humiliated by the child's own reaction and they will defend their "sharing."  Either that, or the narcissist finds it funny when the child feels uncomfortable, so the parent persists in it.. 

Some NPDs "lament" or speak out about their allegedly incredible sex drive and prowess.  They want others to know how awesome they are in this respect.  They also believe that almost anyone of the opposite sex would find them irresistible if they were "available" or "willing."  Other NPDs engage in inappropriate sexual behavior with their children's own boyfriends/girlfriends/spouses; lots of flirting, chatting, verbal stroking, maybe even some physical touching, too.  Sometimes, since the NPD's spouse is merely an extension of his/her own self, the narcissist will believe that all others of his/her gender are "envious" of him or her for the spouse they have.

Two middle aged sisters I know recently discovered that their mom began speaking with each of them at a young age about the mom's sex life with their own father (detailed sex complaints).  Each girl HATED it, felt sickened; yet, the mom would not stop even when asked.  They were young; they didn't know how abnormal it was, or how to flee their mother's conversation when she held them "captive" to it.  But, neither girl told anyone else in the family about any of this, for fear of embarrassing others as they were being embarrassed.  

Another woman and man (who were not acquainted with each other) were each married to spouses who had an NPD parent.  The parent frequently used their own child as a surrogate sexual partner emotionally.  By this, I mean that there was never any physical incest, but the parent was always very open about his or her sex life, frequently telling the child things the child didn't want to know even after being told to stop.  After each child married, the respective parents were still inappropriately interested in sharing about their sexuality with the child and now their daughter-in-law or son-in-law.  (For example, letting them know about sexual satisfactions or dissatisfactions with their respective spouses).

So, it seems to my husband and me that people with narcissistic behavior have a very strange sense of entitlement or superiority that "allows" them to break the common-sense rules of society about decorum.  Normative restrictions simply do not apply to narcissists; nor do they feel remorse when they get "called on it."  Just anger or hurt.

My mother lives about 3 miles away from us.  Things have been mostly tolerable.  I pursue pleasant, superficial conversation.

 
Awesome; way to go!

I look at my sister and see what is at the core of a close relationship with mom:  destruction.

Yes, even the "Golden Child" is not exempt from the narcissist's cruelties.

I pray for my sister and her family every day.  It is true that she and I have had a rocky relationship, but I can see now that my mother has orchestrated so much of this mess.

 
This is another hallmark of the narcissist.  He or she breeds dislike and distrust between siblings, maybe even competition, often ruining their chance of ever having a mutually-rewarding relationship.  I will pray for your sister whenever she comes to mind; I am praying for her now, actually.  I don't know if it is too late for her to be set free, as you were, by knowing some of the information on this thread.  But, I certainly DO know that a close relationship with a narcissistic parent can mess up your head long term about who you are and whether you can be successful in life.  Even when you are in Christ, this can be a challenge, as you and other believers have discovered.   

My mom is, in a sense, a sick woman.  She has been since she was a child.  She is beyond human help.  She needs Jesus.  She claims to be a believer.  Only the Lord knows.

A wise perspective to take IMO.

In the meantime, my only responsibility in the eyes of God is to treat her respectfully and with grace.  Her "hurt feelings" and "loneliness" are not my responsibility.  Thank you, Jesus. 

Yes, this is good, I think.

After having several days to think about all of this stuff, I am now finding myself rather relieved. Like a burden has been lifted from me.  In fact, at times I am almost joyful!  I'm not sure if this is an appropriate response, but something within me has changed.  About 4-5 days ago I was on the verge of a mild mental breakdown, so heavily burdened with thoughts of mom (this was before I was introduced to NPD).  I locked myself in the bathroom and cried out (quietly, for fear of upsetting the kids) for Jesus to PLEASE take this "thing" from me.  It was like having an animal with it's claws in my back, and I was totally unable to wrench myself from it.  Now, I am free.  Was the Lord's work?  I am cautiously optimistic.  I guess time will tell.

So glad for you!

But what has changed for me this past week is that I no longer feel responsible for her feelings toward me.  I have been set free of this!  I now clearly see that it does not matter how hard I try with her, it will never be good enough.

 
Yes, that is liberating, isn't it. 

[blessedwife]

You know, my sister used to call me quite often and complain to me about mom-- how she was driving her totally crazy, how she believed mom IS crazy.  And yet now, my sister does not speak to me at all.  (We had no big fight or fallout.  She just simply stopped returning my phone calls, letters, email.) Yet she STILL talks to mom every week or so, letting mom into the details of her life, emotional state, problems, etc.  (I know this because my mom passes the info. on to me.)

My mother has often told me that my friends don't really care about me-- that they would never dare to tell me the truth like "she" does.  No one REALLY loves me like she does.   I have no doubt that my sister has heard the same counsel from mom.  Perhaps she really believes this nonsense and therefore cannot bring herself to leave the "only one who REALLY loves me."  My mother can be SO convincing.  Her "care" seems so utterly heartfelt and sincere and loving.  And yet she seems to cause SO much hurt and confusion.  (?)  I wish I could better explain... 

My husband has  said that after a visit with mom he feels like it takes him at least 2 days to recover.  (This is despite the conversation being pleasant, etc.)  It's very weird. 

[Amy Joy]

Is narcissism a condition of faulty brain chemistry, or is it a learned/coping behavior?

There seem to be three main hypothesis about this:

1.  Malignant narcissism is the result of a neurological defect in the brain that prevents the person from understanding the emotional or moral impact of their actions on others. 

2.  Narcissists were born without a conscience, in the first place. 

3.  An NPD is a person who has allowed their own conscience to become seared by the choices they made (and defended to themselves) throughout the years.  It is a choice.

My husband and I think Number Three is the likely cause of NPD.  Why?  Because we believe this about the Son of God: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.  ...  In him was life; and the life was the light of men.  ...  [That] was the true Light, which lighteth EVERY (hu)man that cometh into the world.."  (Emphasis mine.)   

Here is the perspective of a woman who researched and wrote extensively on the topic of malignant narcissism:

How do Brains Get Different?

[Amy Joy]

Another website that might be worth reading for research on NPD is this one:

Narcissistic Personality Disorder

[autumn jades]

What if the almost-narcissist is one of your children.  Our 19 year old son who still lives with us shows strong NPD characteristics.  I know that many young people show self-centeredness but this is way more than normal.  We would appreciate any advice that anyone can give.  DH feels that God is calling us to allow him to stay...it is difficult on our two other teenage children.   Our home feels like a battleground much of the time. 

[Amy Joy]

Hi Autumn Jades.  Not knowing much about your family (other than what you shared in your post on the Different Money Personalities Thread and on the Introduce Yourself Thread), it is difficult for me to know how to address your question. 

Top of mind is the fact that your husband feels your son should be allowed to live at home right now and, also, that not all sinfully selfish problem people are NPDs.  I suppose it could be just poor character qualities in a now-adult man that is exacerbating stress and tension in the household, I don't know.  I suppose you know that you cannot "train him" at this point, so you may need to interest him in Christ and right-living through your own example - doing and not lecturing, which is something we moms should remember whether we have adult problem children or not.  Also, as you "do right," your son may respond to this or he may not.  But "doing right" is an act of worship to the LORD, so worship him regardless and enjoy your God. 

In the meantime, if you wanted to, I suppose you could read some of the links and information on this thread (if you have not already done so) to see whether there are practical tips for helping your family put certain boundaries into place to make home and family life more peaceable.  I would run everything by my husband.  Other than that, I am not sure what to say at this point, but I will pray for you and your family when I see your avatar and your situation comes to mind.       

[lovetoreadmom]

Is narcissism a condition of faulty brain chemistry, or is it a learned/coping behavior?

There seem to be three main hypothesis about this:

1.  Malignant narcissism is the result of a neurological defect in the brain that prevents the person from understanding the emotional or moral impact of their actions on others. 

2.  Narcissists were born without a conscience, in the first place. 

3.  An NPD is a person who has allowed their own conscience to become seared by the choices they made (and defended to themselves) throughout the years.  It is a choice.

My husband and I think Number Three is the likely cause of NPD.  Why?  Because we believe this about the Son of God: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.  ...  In him was life; and the life was the light of men.  ...  [That] was the true Light, which lighteth EVERY (hu)man that cometh into the world.."  (Emphasis mine.)   

Here is the perspective of a woman who researched and wrote extensively on the topic of malignant narcissism:

How do Brains Get Different?

I agree with your's and your husband's assessment here about #3.  If we believe the truth of Scripture, I believe it is hard to come to any other conclusion.

[autumn jades]

Thank you for your kind reply...I hope I haven't veered this off topic. Most of the examples were about parents and friends who were more mature and this is from a different perspective.   We don't know if this is NPD...from what I read probably not...definately not malignant.   I just know that it much of it struck a chord.  When our son was evaluated several years ago, the diagnosis seemed to be moving in the direction of a social disorder but DS eventually refused to continue therapy.   Our son has alway been like this...only before in a smaller cuter package.  I too believe that at some point a person stops struggling against these tendencies  and gives themselves over.  I wonder when that is ( I know you can't answer this  )  I don't think DS has crossed that line yet. 

 I suppose you know that you cannot "train him" at this point, so you may need to interest him in Christ and right-living through your own example - doing and not lecturing, which is something we moms should remember whether we have adult problem children or not.  Also, as you "do right," your son may respond to this or he may not.  But "doing right" is an act of worship to the LORD, so worship him regardless and enjoy your God. 
      

We do know that we can no longer train him...although it is hard to stop trying...it was good to see it in writing from you.    Family members feel that we should be able to stop him from doing what he does.  We have given it all over to God and are trying to stay out of His way.  We are trying to show him the love of Christ through our daily lives and to help him with things that encourage responsible independence.  The daily "in the trenches"  practical application of this stumps us sometimes.  I think it will help when he is out on his own with some distance between us.  We try to remember that God loves him even more than we do.

Not trying to sound pitiful...but it breaks my heart to think that I am nothing to one of my children except for the services I provide.

This burden on our family has been embarrassing and difficult to share among our community.  Many feel that we messed things up (probably true)  and we are just getting what we deserve.  Our family appreciates your encouragement and prayers.

[Amy Joy]

You're welcome, Autumn Jades. 

I know a family where things on this thread struck a chord with them, too, regarding one of their children who is an adolescent (not quite an adult but will be soon).  Like your son, this child has always "been like that."  The other kids are not.  Like you, these parents are at a loss on what to do; they've tried so many things; and, yes, they have cried out to the LORD first, foremost and always.  I was told that the child began therapy a few years ago but never wanted to stick with one counselor for very long.  Also, the parents' view was that, since none of the therapists in their area have experience working with tendencies like those described on this thread, the counseling appeared to have validated or reinforced the child's introspective and selfish tendencies.   

Heartbreaking situations like these are sooo much more difficult for a concerned parent to bear when other people assume it must be 100% the fruit of parental wrongdoing.  Please know you are not alone in this.  There are other good parents out there who, yes, have messed up in certain ways (maybe even significant ways) but who also are being inaccurately judged or wrongfully condemned by others for the sins and personal choices of older children.  Surely Jesus understands the agony of one who suffers whispers and condemnation for things she/he is not guilty of.  I pray Jesus will be your comfort at times of undeserved embarrassment, and your solace, forgiveness, and redeemer (your son's, too) regarding any areas where you "messed things up."   

I am glad your now-adult son does not appear to have crossed the threshold into being "given over."  Since you are longing to know if there is anything more (or less) you can, should, or should not do (now that your son is grown) I'll pray God would reveal this specifically and in an ongoing way to your husband, to you, and to the other teenage kids (as they, too, must live with your oldest son right now).  If anything else comes to mind while mulling over what you shared today, I will be sure to post again. 

(I have opened a new thread here for continuing discussion about how to deal with a child who has a severe social disorder.)

In the meantime, hang in there and enjoy your God. 

[Amy Joy]

A member wrote with a request for help.  Ex-husband is a severely personality disordered NPD/sociopathic type, and he uses his legal rights to visitations with the children (and child-support issues) to harass his former wife and to put stress on her relationships with the children (over whom she has primary custody). 

The woman's angst is compounded by the fact that other people in her life believe that a Christian should never divorce under any circumstance, and they condemn the woman's desire to have no contact with this man.  They think the two should get back together since neither have remarried.  Emotionally (and therefore physically) she is at the end of her rope with stress.

Frankly, I feel at a complete loss for what to say to a person in this position.    My heart and prayers go out to this woman.

Awhile back, I found an article that tells one way to establish and maintain no contact with a personality disordered ex-spouse when he or she has legal rights to the children.  It involves a paid service ($99 per year per parent).  The service can be court-mandated.  In case this information is helpful to even one person who is in an "extreme situation," I am posting about the service, below.       

Family Wizard Can Help You Co-Parent with a Sociopath 

The most heartbreaking dramas that sociopaths create are those that involve children. Many sociopathic parents stand up in court proclaiming that they “only want what is best for the children.” They’re lying. What they really want is to use the children as clubs to beat their ex-partners into submission.

There is no such thing as a simple phone call to find out what little Johnny needs to bring to soccer practice. Every phone call or e-mail is an opportunity for the sociopath to manipulate, denigrate and infuriate the ex, through lies, innuendo and misinformation. For the parent trying to protect the children, it’s exhausting.

A few months ago, Lovefraud published a letter from “Penny,” who is in this situation. She wrote her Tips for co-parenting with a sociopath. One of Penny’s recommendations was that parents request that all communications with their former partners go through Our Family Wizard.

Our Family Wizard

Our Family Wizard is a website designed to facilitate communications between separated or divorced parents in relation to their children. It promotes “cooperative parenting:”

For the first time ever, parents can coordinate shared custody and joint custody parenting time schedules, health records, immunization histories, expense sharing, school information, virtual document storage and much more on a website specifically designed to deal with the issues that arise in co-parenting situation.

Our website is committed to removing conflict and improving the lives of children. In fact, judges in at least 35 states order families to utilize the site in contested cases to reduce conflict.

The Our Family Wizard website is a great tool for managing difficult parenting relationships. The website provides excellent documentation to help reduce conflict that may arise from ineffective communication. Should you need to return to court, all pages are printable and most come with a preformatted print option with all the necessary data you will need to show that you have met your parenting obligations.

The service costs $99 per year per parent. “This fee is worth it,” Penny wrote. “I know this because the judge hearing my case ordered that communication between my ex and I take place solely on the Our Family Wizard website … The judge also ordered that no verbal communication is to take place between the parties facilitating the exchange of my child.”

No creative language

Approximately 10,000 families—20,000 parents—use Our Family Wizard, according to Jainarain Kissoon, CEO. One reason why it helps in high-conflict situations, Kissoon says, is because the website’s structured format allows no room for “creative language.”

“Phone conversations used to turn into heated battles, then the battles moved to e-mail,” Kissoon says. “The site helps compartmentalize what everyone is doing. In co-parenting classes, they emphasize businesslike communication. The site provides organization—there are no long e-mails back and forth.”

With Our Family Wizard, parents can limit communication to filling in the blanks—soccer game, what day, what time, what the child needs to bring.

Features

Our Family Wizard includes the following features:

• Calendar—each calendar event, such as soccer practice, includes which children participate, the location, the drop off parent and the pick up parent.

• Journal—entries can be shared or private. It’s a place to document any incidents, and all notes are time and date stamped.

• Message board—With no outside e-mail servers, there are no lost messages and always a way to verify a message has been received.

• Info bank—A place to manage all family information, such as schools, childcare providers, immunization history, emergency contacts, insurance and more.

• Expense log—tracks shared expenses, automatically calculating each parent’s contribution.

Documentation

An important benefit of Our Family Wizard is its level of documentation:

• Each entry is time and date stamped—who created it and when.

• Every page is stamped with the last time both parents viewed it.

• Messages cannot be altered or unsent.

• Dates on journal entries cannot be altered.

• One parent cannot change the other parent’s information.

• Nearly everything can be tracked back to an IP address.

• An accurate chronology of events can be produced.

• All pages are printable.

The software includes the option of third-party accounts, so, if necessary, therapists or guardians ad litem can monitor communications. If a parent engages in abusive behavior, it is readily discovered and difficult to deny.

With Our Family Wizard, it becomes easy to tell who is complying with court orders, and who is not. Kissoon relates why one judge said he liked the software: “It gives people enough rope to hang themselves.”

In an early pilot program for the software, a judge ordered 40 families to communicate only through Our Family Wizard. For two years, none of the families were back in court.

Testimonials

The Our Family Wizard website includes testimonials from parents. “Manuel S” wrote:

I am thankful to this avenue of communication. It has controlled the nasty phone calls from my ex-wife to me and my wife, and has put an end to her foul language since she is aware the content of messages is monitored. I have documentation to avoid he said she said situations and her violations of my rights to see my kids!

Penny says the website works. “Please mention to readers that they can request that Our Family Wizard be ordered by the judge hearing their case,” she wrote. “The judge can order the Our Family Wizard email as the sole means of communication between couples litigating a child custody/visitation dispute.”

For more information, visit:

OurFamilyWizard.com

[rejoicing]

I can't tiptoe around the issue, so I am just going to come right out with it.  What do you do if you are married to someone with borderline personality disorder?     How do you handle that?  This thread talks a lot about having a parent with it, but what about a husband? 

[lovetoreadmom]

I can't tiptoe around the issue, so I am just going to come right out with it.  What do you do if you are married to someone with borderline personality disorder?     How do you handle that?  This thread talks a lot about having a parent with it, but what about a husband? 

I know there is a LOT more to this, but I would start w/ I Peter 3 and go from there.  I will be praying for you, and will be thinking more on how to respond to this question.

I am there with you on this, rejoicing, as I believe my DH has one, as well.  I believe it to be a product of his upbringing, being unsaved, dealing/not dealing w/ the death of his father (father was murdered), and several other things.

Praying for you right now. 

[freshisbest]

You cling to God...you ask Him to reveal himself to you DAILY....so you will be encouraged that He is there, aware, and will see you through to the end. God will protect you when you have come to the end of being able to protect yourself. Also, look at your dh as God sees Him....work WITH God not against Him...Do Unto Others is trite but true..imagine if YOU were the confused, angry, helpless person trying to face down demons?? How would YOU want to be dealt with, spoken to; what would encourage YOU? What would you like your spouse to say to YOU? Keep your nose in The Word and ask God to speak to you directly and encourage you. Sometimes its just you and God in the foxhole...but He is so faithful!!!!!

[lovetoreadmom]

Wishing we could "like" things like on Facebook!  Well said, freshisbest, on all points. 

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