next »

[brandplucked]

Revelation 17:8 "and they shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and YET IS." King James Holy Bible.

All King James Bible critics have a strong tendency to exaggerate, twist and misrepresent the evidence, and to flat out LIE. They unconsciously reveal their underlying hatred towards God’s true Holy Book and final authority. Blinded by their own pride, they make themselves out to be the authoritative voice for what they independently think God may or may not have caused to be written in His inspired and infallible Scriptures.

Not one of them completely agrees with anybody else about what should or should not be in “the Bible” and not one of them actually believes that there EVER was nor IS NOW any such thing as a complete, inspired, inerrant, infallible and 100% true Holy Bible in any language, including their ever changing and undefined “the Hebrew and the Greek”.

Such a Bible critic is Detroit Baptist Seminary Professor names William W. Combs. He has written a booklet called “Errors in the King James Version?

The other day I received an email listing a particular example of what Doctor Combs affirms in no uncertain terms is an undeniable error in our beloved King James Bible. Here are some of the things Mr. Combs mentions in his harangue against the Book of books.

He says:
“In the NT the translators of the KJV used a Greek text commonly called the Textus Receptus. Its origins go back to the various editions produced by the Roman Catholic scholar Erasmus beginning in 1516. There is no one edition of the TR, but a number of editions with some differences among them. It is generally agreed that the edition used by the translators of the KJV was the fifth edition (1598) of Theodore Beza. All editions of the TR have some readings that are clearly erroneous, but have remained in the KJV. For example, in Revelation 17:8 the KJV reads:

The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and “yet is”.


Comment on what Mr. Combs has said so far. Notice how he tries to slam and vilify Erasmus as a “Catholic” scholar. Erasmus had strongly criticized many beliefs and practices of the Catholic church of his day and he died with his Protestant friends around him. One might just as accurately describe Martin Luther as “a Catholic monk” when in 1517 he nailed his now famous 99 Theses to that church door.

Mr. Combs berates Erasmus, and yet notes in passing that it was Theodore Beza’s Greek text produced some 82 years later that, in the main, the King James Bible translators used - not that of Erasmus. Helloooo? Is there a disconnect here?


Mr. Combs continues:
The final words in the verse, "and yet is," should actually read "and shall come"—"the beast that was, and is not, and shall come." NO GREEK MANUSCRIPT READS "and yet is"; ALL HAVE "and shall come." ... THIS IS AN UNDISPUTABLE ERROR IN THE KJV and the Greek text (TR) that underlies it.”
(Caps are mine)

Here is where the good Doctor Combs goes completely over the edge of reason and flat out LIES to us. It is NOT true that NO Greek manuscript reads as does the King James Bible, and that ALL have “and shall come”. Neither is it an “undisputable error in the KJV.”

Notice how all these Bible haters always pick on just ONE Bible? It’s always the King James Bible that allegedly has all these “errors” in it. Not Tyndale, nor the Geneva Bible, nor the Bishops’ nor the NASB, NIV, RSV, ESV, NKJV or Holman. No, it’s always the King James Bible. Satan’s vile hatred is directed through these modern day Bible agnostics against only One Book and that Book is the Authorized King James Holy Bible and none other. It is the only Bible believed and defended by hundreds of thousands of blood boutht Christians today as the inspired, inerrant and infallible words of the living God and the Standard by which all others are measured.


James White is another inconsistent Bible Agnostic who criticizes The “book of the LORD” (Isaiah 34:16 - and Yes, I am equating the book of the Lord to the King James Bible!). In his book, The King James Only Controversy, on page 64 he also criticizes the reading found in the King James Bible in Revelation 17:8, and yet this same James White in this same book recommends by name only three modern versions as being “reliable” - the NASB, NIV and the NKJV. Yet the NKJV reads exactly like the KJB he just criticized in Revelation 17:8! These Bible critics are nothing if not consistently inconsistent.

Let’s now look more closely at the history and the evidence for the reading found in Revelation 17:8. Mr. Combs tells us that NO Greek manuscript reads like the King James Bible. However the reading “and yet is” is found in several compiled Greek texts, including those of Erasmus, Stephanus, Beza, Elziever and Scrivenir.

It is also found in the famous Sinaiticus Greek manuscript itself. The Sinaitucus manuscript has actually had three different readings. The first Sinaiticus reading apparently was "and AGAIN shall be", but then another scribe changed this to the absurd "and again YOU ARE" and finally another scribe changed it again to finally read "and IS", which essentially agrees with the KJB reading of "and yet is".

There is a 1918 version called The New Testament Translation from the Sinaitic Manuscript, done by Henry Anderson. It clearly says: “when they see the beast that was, and is not, THOUGH HE IS YET PRESENT.” You can see this translation online here:http://www.lookhigher.net/englishbib...ion/17.html#v7

In his book When the KJV Departs from the “Majority” Text, brother Jack Moorman points out that not only does the Sinaiticus third reading give the same sense as that found in the TR, but so also do the Greek readings found in manuscripts 2049, 1854, 2014, 2034 plus 31 other Andreas type manuscripts.

Mr. Moorman points out: "Keep in mind that the context of the reading is the future tribulation, not John's day. It strains the sense to be looking at something that "will come". NASB - "Those who dwell on the earth will wonder...when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come." When the world looks at him, he IS, not "shall be".

Doctors Hodges and Farstad, who put together the so called “Majority” Text, also note on page 777 of their book that there are also several Greek manuscripts that read “and IS” - parestin, the present tense of the verb parestai, instead of the future tense of this verb “and shall be” which is followed by many of the every changing modern versions. This combined evidence shows that when the learned Dr. Combs stated in no uncertain terms that “NO Greek manuscript” reads as does the KJB, and that “ALL read ‘and shall be’” he was lying.


There is a great deal of confusion found in the existing texts of Revelation 17:8 regarding the various readings of “and yet is” or “and is” or “and shall be” or simply omitting the phrase altogether. The Latin Vulgate of 380 and 420 A.D. simply omit the phrase, and so do Wycliffe, Tyndale, Coverdale and the Catholic Douay-Rheims.

The 1841 English Hexapla shows the Greek text of Scholz, and the Six English translations of Wycliffe, Tyndale, Cranmer, the Geneva Bible, the Douay-Rheims and the Authorized 1611. Scholz’s Greek text is basically the Westcott-Hort text which omits literally thousands of words from the Textus Receptus Greek text that underlies the King James Bible.

However he does footnote the various readings from the Received Text, and he shows clearly that the reading of the Received text in Revelation 17:8 is kaiper estin = “and yet is”, which is the one followed by the Geneva Bible, the Bishops’ Bible, the King James Bible and many other translations as we shall soon see.

bible.zoxt.net/hex/_1309.htm Shows in a footnote that the Received Text reading or Revelation 17:8 is “and yet is” kaiper estin.

Earlier versions like Wycliffe 1380, Tyndale 1534, Cranmer 1539 and the Douay-Rheims of 1582 followed yet different texts and just omit the phrase in question. These four versions read: “when they behold the beast that was, and is not.” (nothing about “any yet is” nor the Critical texts “and shall be”.)


Sinaiticus original read “and again shall be”, but Sinaiticus correction says “and is”. Vaticanus omits all of Revelation, so it is of no help in determining the correct reading.

Modern versions like the NASB, NIV, ESV have chosen to follow the codex Alexandrinus manuscript here, but often reject other readings of codex Alexandrinus in the same book of the Revelation. These modern version editors are not in the least bit concerned with what the so called “Majority” texts read because they simply reject outright hundreds of readings found in these majority texts. If they accuse the King James Bible believer of accepting the occasional “minority reading” as being legitimate then they are guilty of being blatant hypocrites. For every one minority reading found in the King James Bible there are at least 20 of them in versions like the NASB, NIV, RSV, ESV, Holman, NET, etc.

The versions translated from the Syriac are also in disagreement, even with each other. Lamsa's 1936 translation of the Aramaic reads: "the beast that was, and is, and NOW WHOSE END HAS COME", while Murdoch's translation reads: "the beast that was, and IS NOT AND APPROACHETH."


The reading of "the beast that was, and is not, and YET IS" is found in the Bishops' Bible of 1568, the Geneva Bibles from 1557 to 1602, the King James Bible, the NKJV 1982, Young's ‘literal’, the 2001 Urim-Thummin Version, the 1993 Word of Jah version (translated by Jewish Christians), Green's Modern KJV 2000, the KJV 21st Century version 1994, the Third Millenium Bible 1998, Martin Luther’s German bible of 1545, the Spanish Las Sagradas Escrituras of 1569, the Spanish Reina Valera of 1909 and the 2005 Reina Valera Gomez translation - “se maravillarán cuando vean la bestia, que era y no es, AUNQUE ES”. Other foreign language bibles that also say “the beast that was, and is not, and yet is” are the Italian Diodati of 1649 and the New Diodati of 1991, the French Martin of 1744 and the French Ostervald of 1996. Again, it is the reading found in the printed Greek texts of Erasmus, Stephanus, Beza, Elziever and Scrivenir.

You can either choose to believe “the scholars” who constantly disagree with each other about what should be in “The Bible” or not, or you can choose to believe that the sovereign God of the universe has indeed been faithful to preserve His inspired words through history and that there really does exist a Bible on this earth that IS the complete, inspired, infallible and 100% true words of the living God. All the evidence - internal, historical and spiritual - points to this one Book and one Standard of absolute final written authority as being the only true Holy Bible by which all others are to be measured - the King James Holy Bible.

“Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail...” Isaiah 34:16

Will Kinney

[AndysDad]

Revelation 17:8 "and they shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and YET IS." King James Holy Bible.

All King James Bible critics have a strong tendency to exaggerate, twist and misrepresent the evidence, and to flat out LIE. They unconsciously reveal their underlying hatred towards God’s true Holy Book and final authority. Blinded by their own pride. . .

Will, such diatribe is against the rules of this forum as I understand them. Please revise.

Doctor Combs says:
“In the NT the translators of the KJV used a Greek text commonly called the Textus Receptus. Its origins go back to the various editions produced by the Roman Catholic scholar Erasmus beginning in 1516. There is no one edition of the TR . . . . All editions of the TR have some readings that are clearly erroneous, but have remained in the KJV. For example, in Revelation 17:8 the KJV reads:

The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and “yet is”.

Notice how he tries to slam and vilify Erasmus as a “Catholic” scholar. Erasmus had strongly criticized many beliefs and practices of the Catholic church of his day and he died with his Protestant friends around him. One might just as accurately describe Martin Luther as “a Catholic monk” when in 1517 he nailed his now famous 99 Theses to that church door.

Martin Luther was a Roman Catholic monk who nailed 95 Theses to the door of a Catholic-owned meeting hall. That is an accurate description. It would not be an accurate description to say that Martin Luther was a Catholic monk who translated Erasmus' edition of the New Testament into German.  Luther could not continue on as a Papist and do what he did; Erasmus could and did.  Luther did not dedicate his work to the Pope; Erasmus did. He may have advocated reform, but he was not a Reformer. It is totally accurate to refer to Erasmus as a "Catholic scholar."

Mr. Combs continues:
The final words in the verse, "and yet is," should actually read "and shall come"—"the beast that was, and is not, and shall come." NO GREEK MANUSCRIPT READS "and yet is"; ALL HAVE "and shall come." ... THIS IS AN UNDISPUTABLE ERROR IN THE KJV and the Greek text (TR) that underlies it.”
(Caps are mine)

Here is where the good Doctor Combs goes completely over the edge of reason and flat out LIES to us. It is NOT true that NO Greek manuscript reads as does the King James Bible, and that ALL have “and shall come”. Neither is it an “undisputable error in the KJV.”

At this point the reader would expect some proof; for example, a Greek manuscript that doesn't read kai parestai, or one that does read kaiper estin.  The Textus Receptus reads kaiper estin, and all translations of it essentially read "and yet is." No one is disputing that. The argument is over what the manuscripts read.

Mr. Combs tells us that NO Greek manuscript reads like the King James Bible. However the reading “and yet is” is found in several compiled Greek texts, including those of Erasmus, Stephanus, Beza, Elziever and Scrivenir.

This is Dr. Comb's point. You restated it well.

It is also found in the famous Sinaiticus Greek manuscript itself.

No, it's not. The Sinaiticus ms reads kai/palinpareste but has been interlinearlly corrected to read kai parestin.

The Sinaiticus manuscript has actually had three different readings. The first Sinaiticus reading apparently was "and AGAIN shall be", but then another scribe changed this to the absurd "and again YOU ARE" and finally another scribe changed it again to finally read "and IS", which essentially agrees with the KJB reading of "and yet is".

This doesn't match up with what you wrote farther down. Scholars who worked with Sinaiticus only identified one correction (albeit in two parts). You can look at the image yourself here. Obviously there is no way of identifying two different correctors, much less being able to tell which came first. But the original reading is obvious, not just apparent.

There is a 1918 version called The New Testament Translation from the Sinaitic Manuscript, done by Henry Anderson. It clearly says: “when they see the beast that was, and is not, THOUGH HE IS YET PRESENT.” You can see this translation online here:http://www.lookhigher.net/englishbib...ion/17.html#v7

It is also at the site I cited.

In his book When the KJV Departs from the “Majority” Text, brother Jack Moorman points out that not only does the Sinaiticus third reading give the same sense as that found in the TR, but so also do the Greek readings found in manuscripts 2049, 1854, 2014, 2034 plus 31 other Andreas type manuscripts.

This is not what you set out to prove. What you set out to prove was that it is a LIE that no Greek manuscript has kaiper estin. You have not done so.  It won't take much to convince me; just provide a photo of the manuscript page on which you think kaiper estin is found. It may turn out that this manuscript was directly copied from the Textus Receptus itself, but that's okay; your point will have been proven, even if it fails to impress anybody.  But if you can't even offer that much in proof, your protests deservedly fall on deaf ears.

Doctors Hodges and Farstad, who put together the so called “Majority” Text, also note on page 777 of their book that there are also several Greek manuscripts that read “and IS” - parestin, the present tense of the verb parestai, instead of the future tense of this verb “and shall be” which is followed by many of the every changing modern versions. This combined evidence shows that when the learned Dr. Combs stated in no uncertain terms that “NO Greek manuscript” reads as does the KJB, and that “ALL read ‘and shall be’” he was lying.

I will agree with you on one point. I would not be so discerning as to call it a LIE, but any man displays his ignorance who claims that ALL manuscripts read a certain way at any point. There are hundreds of thousands of differences among the thousands of manuscripts, and few there are that have even looked to see what they are. Hoskier was one such scholar, and I doubt that he would ever have made such a claim after painstakingly collating every manuscript on Revelation then available.  In fact, there are about seven different ways the Greek manuscripts read at this point, and the overwhelming majority of Latin manuscripts don't appear to have it at all.

But Hoskier found that no two Greek manuscripts agree on ANY reading other than the one common to virtually all of them: kai parestai.

You can either choose to believe “the scholars” who constantly disagree with each other about what should be in “The Bible” or not, or you can choose to believe that the sovereign God of the universe has indeed been faithful to preserve His inspired words through history and that there really does exist a Bible on this earth that IS the complete, inspired, infallible and 100% true words of the living God.

There is plenty enough disagreement on both sides, even within the same forum post. Perhaps there is a third alternative, but if not, we can always stick with the faithfully preserved Book of the Lord (aka 1599 Geneva Bible), which reads "and yet is."

Andy'sDad

Advanced search

• 1 Timothy 3:16 GOD was manifest in the flesh, or the Vatican versions "he"?: Translation Questions and Discussion byandiclare (3)
• Revelation 18:20 - Bible critics and "ye holy apostles and prophets": Translation Questions and Discussion bybrandplucked (0)
• What About the 2011 NIV Old Testament?: Translation Questions and Discussion bybrandplucked (0)
• 1 Samuel 6:19 Is your Bible the 100% historical truth of God? 50,070 or 70 slain: Translation Questions and Discussion bybrandplucked (3)
• What About the new NIV 2011?: Translation Questions and Discussion bybrandplucked (2)
• Answering the Typical Anti-KJB Only sites: Translation Questions and Discussion bybrandplucked (0)
• We are Gods?: Bible Discussion bySoffi (0)
• Every Man For Himself Bible Versions: Translation Questions and Discussion bybrandplucked (0)
• Answering James White's Question - Which KJV?: Translation Questions and Discussion byAndysDad (6)

• Japanese/English Bible?: Translation & Publishing—Resources, Questions & Interaction byGarlicMomma (5)
• Beka....?: Announcements & Updates byandiclare (0)
• HELP? Hubby can't sleep (I tried to search this): Healthcare @ Home byandiclare (1)
• Where is everyone?: Nothing Deep byGarlicMomma (5)
• Introduce Yourself!: Nothing Deep bypiperjameson (325)
• The scoop on Soap: House and Home byCherika Four Seasons (1)
• Ideas: Children serving each other: Parenting byjenibee (0)
• My husband needs help with something I think is wrong: Relationships byjackiee (4)
• like minded moms?: Parenting byHomeschool_Newbie (2)
• "Courtship" discussions/questions: Relationships byHomeschool_Newbie (15)
• Announcing....: Announcements & Updates byBJ_BOBBI_JO (5)
• 80 days dream: Announcements & Updates bybasething (16)
• strabismus: Healthcare @ Home byFree Woman (10)
• Prayer Requests -- Health Related: Healthcare @ Home byBJ_BOBBI_JO (640)
• Translations in Guatemala...: Translation & Publishing—Resources, Questions & Interaction byAndysDad (5)
• Boring christian life: Sarah's Daughters byBJ_BOBBI_JO (6)
• Is this site for real?: Relationships byandiclare (2)
• Emergency food: canned or powder?: Nothing Deep byGarlicMomma (9)
• A heart issue for my children?: Parenting byandiclare (9)
• Keeping Warm, Heating Tips & Tricks: House and Home byherbalmom (60)

[Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.Did you miss your activation email?]

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

February 04, 2012, 05:48:34 PM

1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

Members

• Total Members: 6890
• Latest: Sunglasses

Stats

• Total Posts: 243886
• Total Topics: 21906
• Online Today: 35
• Online Ever: 437
• (April 01, 2008, 03:09:36 PM)

Users Online

• Users: 0
• Guests: 26
• Total: 26