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[TenThousandYears]

Amen, SC! 

On that subject, I have known a few people in my past that fancy the idea of martyrdom. This desire always struck me completely contradictory to the very idea of martyrdom. To pursue the fullness of life, with joy and gratitude to God who gives life, is righteousness. And to value that life, right up until the moment when you have to lay it down rather than deny Him, is true martyrdom, IMO.

I will not fear death - I will fear God. I will fight for my life and the lives of my children without fear, and with gratitude to God who continually preserves us in the palm of His hand. And in that place, I will make it through.

Beka

What an odd thought, that folks may actually fancy the idea of martyrdom...  Really, that kind of makes my brain spin.  I keep thinking, "those people must not be Mommas!"  LOL!  I can' t imagine any Momma I know not wanting to see their children grow up, live full lives, and have children of their own. 

In regard to what Gabe has said, I think many of us women on 7X (the vast majority of posters are women) have had to come through a very challenging understanding of what is to come.  I know that I came here(7X)  with the world's view of how things work, and I struggled in my marriages and my own delayed maturity because of that.  Then I finally got to a place where I can say, "Alright, my man is the head and I will follow him!"   and God has taught me so much about faith in that.   

As time passed I found myself reading about end times.  And I basically had to make that decision to follow my man all over again.  End times are scary if  you aren't 'prepared'.  Not all of us have men that are concerned about it.  It initially made for a very difficult internal struggle of my will.  Do I learn to survive or do I continue to do what I know the Word says I should? 

I, personally, don't think those two things are exclusive of one another.  In fact, I have come to believe that by submitting to and honoring my husband I am preparing for what is to come...  We may not have land in the mountains, no escape plan, no large emergency food stash.  We don't have a bug out vehicle, and we are not self sufficient.  Still, I want to live!  I want my children to survive!  And because of that desire I have determined that to follow my husband is life.  God knows my heart, and He knows my situation.  God told me to submit to and honor this man.  God is blessed when I obey Him and He will not leave me or forsake me.  Therefore, I do not fear what is to come. 

I do not fear what is to come because it would keep me from doing what I've been asked to do here and now.  When/if my husband determines we need to prepare for the coming storm, I will be prepared to obey him quickly and without question. 

I agree with Gabe that many of us here are religious and often lack faith.  The disciples were religious and lacked faith as well...  Jesus told them over and over how little faith they had.  The disciples lacked knowledge too.  They just couldn't take their eyes off of what was to come.  They argued and bickered about who would be greater and they had no understanding of what they were competing for.  bleck.  Yet, they also spread the gospel of Christ to  the entire known world in just a few short years!  Through the power of the Holy Spirit, they were capable of the task before them...    They just had to learn to follow their Head.

Now, I'm no fan of martyrdom.  I want to live.  But for me, I had to take my focus off of survival and place it squarely on LIVING.  If that means that my tomorrows may be shortened... heh, that's not exactly what I was hoping for... but so be it. 

 

         

D & L I love your post.  You write such inspiring and genuine posts, full of wisdom and maturity and childlike faith.  Thank you for all you share on this board! 

[Gabriel Anast]

One other thing about following your head... your man, in the case of a woman.

When Daniel was in Babylon and had a Babylonian for a master, he was willing to obey him and submit to him except when it came to disobeying God... specifically, eating meat sacrificed to idols and later, praying to God alone instead of praying to the king as God. In one case his master allowed him a trial period (Daniel inviting his master to make a vow... very interesting) and in the other he was forced (not by his master, but by a rule that his master had entangled himself with) to be thrown to the lions. God closed the mouth of the lions.

Earlier Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah were given the option of worshiping the image of the kingdom or being burned to death. They were submissive and willing servants of their king, but when the music played would not bow... and were thrown into the fire to be burned. Oddly, God preserved them and they could not be burned.

There will come a time for more than a few believing women when an unbelieving husband who generally has loved and cared for his wife will (having tied his own hands in foolishness) have taken the mark and will wonder why his wife will not. In some cases he will cover her anyway... and in others he will against his own will be forced of others to "throw her to the lions" and in still other cases will "submit her to the fire to be burned" in some metaphorical sense. Obviously believing men will face these things as well in different sorts of situations.

Not many will be this strong as to endure these things as Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah were. These were able because they had a history of doing right and had matured themselves in the ways and knowledge of God.

Anyway... khix and others that feel incapable to prepare... there is an inter-library loan program that will avail you of these books mentioned in this thread for free. Then also pray. God is your man's head. Pray to God night and day that He would move your man according to what you know and believe. Be Esther for your people (children).

Being one gender or the other does not relieve you of any duty of right action. Be mighty, whomever you are. Fill yourself and clothe yourself with right action and fear of God.

--gabe

[seekingtruth]

Insightful post, Gabe. 

After reading the mark of the beast remarks, my first thought was- my husband would probably take the mark if it meant feeding his family.  He is not a believer, but loves his family dearly and would do anything to provide for us.  But he is also fine with stocking food and learning to be self sufficient.

It is obviously becoming harder and harder to function in this society with cash.  Everything has gone electronic and requires a SS#.  They even wanted a SS# to turn our gas on.  But it is rather convenient.  I am thinking this is something we should be disentangling ourselves from? 

It will take wisdom and guidance for a believing woman to know when to follow and when/if things reach a point where we must choose not to in order to follow God.  I pray that we will all be given that wisdom when we need it.

Tammy

[khix]

Anyway... khix and others that feel incapable to prepare... there is an inter-library loan program that will avail you of these books mentioned in this thread for free. Then also pray. God is your man's head. Pray to God night and day that He would move your man according to what you know and believe. Be Esther for your people (children).

--gabe

Oh, I do pray that.....and I trust God that if He wants me/us (as a family) to do something, that He will make a way & will move on my man's heart.

About the free books - I'm all for free books!  Do you mean the local library?  Or are you talking about something else - where I actually get to KEEP the book?  If so, pray tell - what/where is it??

I wish I had ALL the books & videos that would teach me the stuff I need to know!  I wish I was taught more growing up!  I wish I wasn't so reliant on electricity & running water & the grocery store, and all this modern stuff!   I wish I had more money & all the needed supplies to get started!  I wish we had land, more storage space, or a storehouse or something!  I really wish I had someone by my side to walk/talk me through everything  - it's so hard learning from a book sometimes....I guess I learn best by DOING  (don't we all?  )......I just give God my wishes & trust that He will provide!

--------------------------

So, is this thread about preparing, about faith, about an end-time timeline, about warning us of what's to come, or a combination of the 4?

[LearningLady]

  I really wish I had someone by my side to walk/talk me through everything  - it's so hard learning from a book sometimes....I guess I learn best by DOING  (don't we all?  )......I just give God my wishes & trust that He will provide!

 
Hi Khix

I really believe God is interested in the details of our lives. Perhaps you could ask Him to show you what you should do today to prepare.. or this week. Then leave the big picture to Him. He will lead you day by day, step by step xx

[Mrs. B]

I've been reading, pondering, praying and discussing this post with my husband since you wrote it last week Gabe. 
I don't know that these are necessarily questions that need answers, but just things that have crossed my mind....

Is preparing out of faith or fear?  I've felt compelled the past several years to have food prepared and put away, but now that it is there, I feel no security in it, not that there ever was any there to begin with....
Is it really what our motivation is?  Are we really just seeking some form of security?
Are we to prepare, or is God preparing us.... or are the two, one in the same?
Is this really more about preparation on a spiritual level?  It almost doesn't seem to be about just having stores of food. 
I'm just much more affected by the possibility that God wants me stripped down and realizing my dependence daily upon him.... not relying upon what 'I' have stored up, but on what he can provide, sometimes miraculously.

Sorry for the ramble, but I've just been realizing that so often I focus on what God wants me to do, and maybe in this I'm not allowing Him to do all that he wants as I'm doing and doing. 

[khix]

Is preparing out of faith or fear?  I've felt compelled the past several years to have food prepared and put away, but now that it is there, I feel no security in it, not that there ever was any there to begin with....
Is it really what our motivation is?  Are we really just seeking some form of security?
Are we to prepare, or is God preparing us.... or are the two, one in the same?
Is this really more about preparation on a spiritual level?  It almost doesn't seem to be about just having stores of food. 
I'm just much more affected by the possibility that God wants me stripped down and realizing my dependence daily upon him.... not relying upon what 'I' have stored up, but on what he can provide, sometimes miraculously.

YES!  You've put into words what I've been thinking!  When you (collective "you") store up stuff - are you trusting in your "stuff" to see you through or are you trusting in God? 

BUT, I don't think it negates learning how to live off the land or how to live without conveniences or learning how to make things, etc.....learning how to do things is good.  I don't think there is a conflict between learning how to do things & trusting in God.

[LearningLady]

Wow, Mrs B and Khix thats very thought provoking. I feel I have sooo much to learn! All I know is that God is calling us to simplify our lives and learn to lean completely on Him. He is leading me day by day.

[Mrs. B]

One thing I forgot to add....
My feeling/thoughts have been that God is looking for men and women of might. 
The idea you (Gabe/Beka) expressed regarding storing up for someone else potentially really hit home with me for whatever reason.  We still store and prepare, but I feel like we've missed a bigger point (personally).
The idea of being a mighty man or woman of God seems like it has so much more to it than simply storing up to store.... more than just knowing how to grow and forage.
I think it has just hit me that maybe it is more about trust.....

[Beth]

One other thing about following your head... your man, in the case of a woman.

Anyway... khix and others that feel incapable to prepare... there is an inter-library loan program that will avail you of these books mentioned in this thread for free. Then also pray. God is your man's head. Pray to God night and day that He would move your man according to what you know and believe. Be Esther for your people (children).

Being one gender or the other does not relieve you of any duty of right action. Be mighty, whomever you are. Fill yourself and clothe yourself with right action and fear of God.

--gabe

Well, I have done just that...prayed that God would lead my husband...we've just never felt the need to stock up in the survivalist sense. We have always just trusted God to provide. Not that we are negligent to do whatever it is we can to be a good steward of what God gives us.
The whole survivalist mentality kind of leaves a bit of a bad taste in our mouths. It seems to become an obsession and a" me and mine" mentality... not gonna go there! We watched others around us do this during the y2k episode and we just can't do it. And that for us is The Fear of God.

[Gabriel Anast]

Yes, I think the point you are making, Mrs. B, is the exact point of the dream in the PS of this post: http://www.7xsunday.net/forum/index.php/topic,25890.msg246813.html#msg246813

It is right to store up. It is right to desire to live. If in the active pursuit of these things you are denied going further, martyred maybe, then there is blessing in this. God is our refuge. He is our help in time of need... but... given the times, the prophesies, and the opportunity... denying them would, in my opinion, be denying the word and instruction of God.

In any case... As concerns the IMO way to common idea that storing up is counter to faith... buying and storing food is indeed my opinion of what should be done now (although I think there is also instruction to that effect to the wise in Proverbs 30). If God is specifically leading you a person differently, my opinion is irrelevant in that case...

--gabe

[ForeverGirl]

Enjoying this thread...

One more opinion...

The things I am learning to do, I am also teaching my kids at the same time. Whether or not we ever need fermented, dried, canned, brewed, etc... food stuffs, the knowledge we are all gaining about basic food preservation and preparation is an education that will never be considered a waste of time. We don't go about this work in fear and dread... but rather with much curiosity about the details and enormous gratitude to God for the things He is providing - including the knowledge.

We often talk about God providing manna from heaven for the Israelites, and giving Ruth and Naomi gleanings from the fields. We talk about Abigail who baked loaves for David's army, Noah's wife who must have helped load the boat with tons of food stuffs, and Jesus feeding the 5,000 with 2 fish and five loaves. The whole picture is one that will result in life:

Trust and Obey


For some of us it may mean going outside in the morning to pick up food that has fallen from the sky (Moses)... for others it might mean gleaning a little here and there every day as the Lord directs (Ruth)... for others it may mean filling enormous storehouses one after another for 7 full years until the famine comes and you are prepared to feed entire nations (Joseph.)

I think Gabe's point is that people wake up... listen to God carefully. Don't cop-out behind your husband, or conversely, live in fear and irritate the heck out of him (your DH) with your paranoia.    Just live by faith, one moment at a time, obeying as you are led.

I love summarizing. 

Beka

[Gabriel Anast]

No... please don't get me wrong.  I don't want to have come across as contradictory.

Heh... sorry, I meant to show how I agree with you...  ;P ...I amended my post and am glad for your comments as I think they are completely germane.

--gabe

[Gabriel Anast]

Anyway, the original point of this thread was to change the, "We're all going to die or get raptured" mentality that is way too common IMO (and leads, for instance, to the "preparation is faithlessness" assumption)... to one that is (IMO) based on the ideas in the Bible:

Some will make it, those who do will enter into an amazing, amazing time. I dare you to make it!

--gabe

PS: Of course this could lead to a "preparation is the only expression of faith" mentality / teaching... which I agree, is equally wrong and incapable.

I don't know... I guess... the opening of the third seal brings a spike in the price of grain to about 14 times what it is before that point. A fifty pound bag of wheat is about $12 - $18 right now. I think that in just about any city over 100,000 you can find a place to buy wheat by the bag. If every time you went to the grocery store you saved $15 and instead bought a bag of wheat. That bag of wheat alone can carry a family of five for a month at least.

Anyway... that's all I'm saying. God knows I too have had months where having actual change was a miracle... lol. yeah.

[Beth]

Enjoying this thread...

One more opinion...

The things I am learning to do, I am also teaching my kids at the same time. Whether or not we ever need fermented, dried, canned, brewed, etc... food stuffs, the knowledge we are all gaining about basic food preservation and preparation is an education that will never be considered a waste of time. We don't go about this work in fear and dread... but rather with much curiosity about the details and enormous gratitude to God for the things He is providing - including the knowledge.

We often talk about God providing manna from heaven for the Israelites, and giving Ruth and Naomi gleanings from the fields. We talk about Abigail who baked loaves for David's army, Noah's wife who must have helped load the boat with tons of food stuffs, and Jesus feeding the 5,000 with 2 fish and five loaves. The whole picture is one that will result in life:

Trust and Obey


For some of us it may mean going outside in the morning to pick up food that has fallen from the sky (Moses)... for others it might mean gleaning a little here and there every day as the Lord directs (Ruth)... for others it may mean filling enormous storehouses one after another for 7 full years until the famine comes and you are prepared to feed entire nations (Joseph.)

I think Gabe's point is that people wake up... listen to God carefully. Don't cop-out behind your husband, or conversely, live in fear and irritate the heck out of him (your DH) with your paranoia.    Just live by faith, one moment at a time, obeying as you are led.

I love summarizing. 

Beka

oh yeah! This... I can get behind! You got a way with words Beka!  I guess you could say we just aren't called to be a Joseph... couldn't if we wanted to. But we have lived as Ruth did and sometimes as Moses did. We have seen God supply our needs in miraculous ways and often at the last minute! Its an awesome thing to watch....
But at the same time I grow a large garden every year and my root cellar is full of canned goods. We just don't have the money to invest in grain... I buy flour in bulk when I can get a good price but thats about it. It is never foolish to prepare.... just don't make that your faith.

Anyway, the original point of this thread was to change the, "We're all going to die or get raptured" mentality that is way too common IMO... to one that is (IMO) based on the ideas in the Bible:

Some will make it, those who do will enter into an amazing, amazing time. I dare you to make it!

--gabe

  ... wonder if I can fit anything else in my garden? 

[denim&lace]

A 5 gallon bucket is about $5...  It will hold an amazing amount of brown beans, or brown rice, or quinoa.  Most of these items are fairly inexpensive from warehouse stores like Costco and they keep very well.  I've always had a reasonable supply of these type items just in case of a natural disaster (earthquake) or some other rainy day event. 

[veggie]

Some will make it, those who do will enter into an amazing, amazing time. I dare you to make it!

--gabe

Not sure if I fully understand everything you're saying.  According to your understanding, will only believers "make it"?  Those who don't, what happens to them?  Are any of them believers?  Are they resurrected when Christ returns? 

[Gabriel Anast]

Not sure if I fully understand everything you're saying.  According to your understanding, will only believers "make it"?  Those who don't, what happens to them?  Are any of them believers?  Are they resurrected when Christ returns? 

Mature believers that are not martyred will be "caught away" to join Christ right at the end of this time. But there will be many other people... righteous people... that make it through. Just because a person does not know the story of Christ does not mean they are evil. Children also will not generally be among those that are mature enough to be caught away... but many will live through into the time to come.

I personally believe that if I persist in right action and love and faith that I will be caught away at that time (if I am still alive) but that my children will not... at least not all of them. However that they will (as I understand the opportunity that God offers the church at Philadelphia) live through "with me" (though I am changed) into the kingdom of Christ on earth. Frankly, I think many children will live through anyway... regardless of the wisdom or lack thereof in their parents. Also there will be many cases where all a parent can offer their child is prayer... so be it. Pray like there is no tomorrow. This too will be an inheritance.

Those that live through will be a great honor to their parents. As far as I can tell one purpose of the tribulation is the purging of Israel... and of the nations. Leaving only those bloodlines that are in some manner righteous... the rest being cut off.

Edit: questions about comments above spawned this thread: Can only certain bloodlines be saved?

The common teaching (walk the isle and wait for the rapture) is thoughtless and ambivalent to the nature and desires of God. I wanted to present this uncommon teaching... I think I have understood it correctly from the Bible.

For those that die during this time... if they die for righteousness sake, they will be in the first resurrection and join those "caught away" at the end of the tribulation and will also live in the thousand years of the reign of Christ.

All others that die or have died will raise in the second resurrection and be judged for their works.

As concerns believers that at any time in history walked away from Christ... these will raise in the second resurrection and will not fare well. I need to stress that "walking away from Christ" is not... uh... its not what so many think it is. So many have been taught such messed up doctrine and then walked away from that... and then thought they walked away from Christ... this is not what I am talking about. Anyway... there are other threads on that topic.

--gabe

[ridgerunner]

As concerns believers that at any time in history walked away from Christ... these will raise in the second resurrection and will not fare well.

Do you mean walked away from Christ - and didn't come back?

[Gabriel Anast]

As concerns believers that at any time in history walked away from Christ... these will raise in the second resurrection and will not fare well.

Do you mean walked away from Christ - and didn't come back?

I mean those that in knowledge and understanding walked away from Christ... period.

You know, there are people that hear about you through a friend and kind of like you... or like what they hear. Then they hear something else through another friend or whatever and suddenly they hate you, or whatever. This is like a lot of so-called "Christians." They hear one thing about God and think its all good and take the name "Christian" while living a life that is totally Godless, but which they think looks "good and Christian." Then keeping up the pretense becomes to difficult and they "backslide" because of the pressures of the world... and usually real physical necessity. So they think they turned their back on God and feel terrible guilt.

The really terrible thing is that in most cases they never knew God. They had joined a corporation that had Sunday morning shows and there were lots of people around that all looked "good" and it felt good to be around good people... but they were not really there for eachother. When the bad and the ugly came up, they just ignored it or swept it under the rug because all they wanted was the "good." So there was no way to heal from the bad and no way to clean up the ugly.

On the other hand there is the actual body of Christ. People that "weaken" themselves for the weakest among them and look for the bad so they can heal it and have compassion on the ugly so that it can be cleansed away. Thus in one accord becoming good in the might and power of a God they actually know and talk to.

It is this group from which some walk away. Having known God, having done righteousness, having once loved and had active faith... they decide they love something else more... pride, lust, whatever, and walk away and trample under foot the blood of Christ.

As far as I know, I have known only a few that I think have actually done this. I have known many others that have hated God outright for other reasons... and many more that have kind of stagnated in immaturity... seeing how to go forward, but being reticent and balking... but I have only known a few that seem to have preferred their own person to the things they had known and found in Christ.

For the God haters and the "balkers," I believe they will also be in the second resurrection and will be judged for their works. God will be just... I think that even some of the die-hard "God haters" will actually be justified by their works where many religious people will be condemned. What we will see is that some (not many... I am not justifying bitterness or malice of any kind) thought they hated God, but really hated uncaring religion... and instead of using that as an excuse to "not care" themselves, instead actually did righteousness for one reason or another.

Hope all this makes sense.

--gabe

[LearningLady]

You know, there are people that hear about you through a friend and kind of like you... or like what they hear. Then they hear something else through another friend or whatever and suddenly they hate you, or whatever. This is like a lot of so-called "Christians." They hear one thing about God and think its all good and take the name "Christian" while living a life that is totally Godless, but which they think looks "good and Christian." Then keeping up the pretense becomes to difficult and they "backslide" because of the pressures of the world... and usually real physical necessity. So they think they turned their back on God and feel terrible guilt.

The really terrible thing is that in most cases they never knew God. They had joined a corporation that had Sunday morning shows and there were lots of people around that all looked "good" and it felt good to be around good people... but they were not really there for eachother. When the bad and the ugly came up, they just ignored it or swept it under the rug because all they wanted was the "good." So there was no way to heal from the bad and no way to clean up the ugly.

On the other hand there is the actual body of Christ. People that "weaken" themselves for the weakest among them and look for the bad so they can heal it and have compassion on the ugly so that it can be cleansed away. Thus in one accord becoming good in the might and power of a God they actually know and talk to.

Wow, this is awesome. I understand more what the "body of Christ means!

[LearningDad]

Mature believers that are not martyred will be "caught away" to join Christ right at the end of this time. But there will be many other people... righteous people... that make it through. Just because a person does not know the story of Christ does not mean they are evil. Children also will not generally be among those that are mature enough to be caught away... but many will live through into the time to come.

By mature, do you mean over the "age of accountability" or something like that?

This is the opposite of the scenario in Left Behind where all the children (and a few of the adults) are raptured... not that I took the theology of that story too seriously 

[Gabriel Anast]

Mature believers that are not martyred will be "caught away" to join Christ right at the end of this time. But there will be many other people... righteous people... that make it through. Just because a person does not know the story of Christ does not mean they are evil. Children also will not generally be among those that are mature enough to be caught away... but many will live through into the time to come.

By mature, do you mean over the "age of accountability" or something like that?

No... I mean mature in Christ. Someone who has put on righteousness and grown in faith.

I think I talk about this in these:

http://www.7xsunday.net/uploads/media/Faith-Righteousness-Love_Looking-for-a-Spouse.mp3
http://www.7xsunday.net/uploads/media/Need-for-Maturity-for-the-Believer-56.mp3

I just noticed that your sig line has a verse that speaks to this directly:

1 Corinthians 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they [do it] to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: But I keep under my body, and bring [it] into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

The idea here is striving to be perfectly led of the Spirit... not led of the flesh. A child walks poorly, but "strives for the mastery" and grows to perfection in running, jumping, skipping and hopping. A young person takes this to a higher level, specifically honing particular skill sets, enduring pain and hardship in order to be a skilled and perfect athlete. This is the idea, this is our calling.

This is the opposite of the scenario in Left Behind where all the children (and a few of the adults) are raptured... not that I took the theology of that story too seriously 

Many, many people believe this. There was a brilliantly executed book written by Clarence Larkin called, Dispensational Truth or God's Plan and Purpose in the Ages. He made copious but easy to follow notes / commentary and made amazing, easy to follow illustrations to accompany all his commentary. His book basically predicated all of fundamentalist western Christianty. Unfortunately, it seems that he was not much of a Bible student, but more of a student of theology and other previous writers. He did a really great job of making a certain branch of theology very accessible.

The Left Behind series is more or less an expression of this perspective.

Note that it is also true that most theologies that are not Dispensationalist are Calvinist / Reformed. Heh... I am no proponent of those ideas either... just trying to read and present the Bible as plainly as I can.

--gabe

[Gabriel Anast]

Totally free book on edible wild plants: Traditional Food Plants of Kenya - although this book is about Kenya, there are many similar or identical plants that grow in the US, and the ideas of how the traditional foods were harvested and prepared is very interesting and useful for general application to any locale.

Google books has parts (some pages are missing, some books more than others) of the following books available for use:

Edible and Useful Plants of Texas and the Southwest
Edible wild plants: a North American field guide
Field guide to edible wild plants
Feasting Free on Wild Edibles
...and MANY more...

Had to add this one: Native American ethnobotany

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