Denominations and the Independent Believer

David Coles

Learning

Posts: 46

« on: December 01, 2009, 02:49:14 PM »

This is the first time I've tried to voice something that's been bothering me for years in the back of my mind - it's not really a question so much as an open discussion.

I was raised in the Church, first in a Presbyterian (PSA) congregation and then after about age 9 or 10 in a "non-denominational" congregation. I continued in NonDenominationalism through college and after college experienced a rebirth of "reformed" theology... one thing led to another over the years and we've wound up where we are now - stuck between the denominational and the nondenominational denominations.

It seems like for local congregation we have to choose between a group of people that has either become dogmatic about a specific set of beliefs which may or may not be warranted by scripture (Baptists and dancing, Nazarene and alcohol, you know what I mean) and another group who seemingly refuses to take hard stances on any kind of church discipline whatsoever. For quite a while I was generally against the idea of a congregation of any sort, since you're either fighting the group to change their perspective or you're sacrificing your own convictions or freedoms in the name of "church unity".

The more I reflect on this, the more I think it applies to lifestyle movements in general and not just the "church", although they frequently go hand in hand...

We've always joked about starting our own church, but when I really stop to think about it, I don't know if the cycle is able to be broken this side of New Earth.. It seems like it goes like this:

Someone like me get's fed up with what he perceives as the things that are "wrong" with the "church". Tired of trying to reform his existing congregation as a member of the laity he spreads his wings and goes to live out his life as he believes God has called him to do so. An example of this may be a specific conviction from God on a non-salvation/non-essential side issue. Because it's close to our hearts (generally speaking), we can use rural or country living as an example.

I believe that we've been called by God to live a simple lifestyle well below our means and keep our family focused around self-sustainability and remaning focused on the important things in life like one another and our relationship with God. I believe I have been called by God to leave the city live (where for the last 5 years he has blessed me) and move the family out to the sticks. This is a personal conviction and I in no way mean to further imply that it is God's will for all Christians to live in the country and that therefore any Christians who hold down regular jobs and live int he city are outside of his will.

But what happens? I have an *individual calling* that necessitates a lifestyle change. So, I move my family and in a natural expression of the human condition, I look for like-minded people - other folks who share my individual calling and personal conviction. These folks are easy to get along with and be understood by. Pretty soon, we've got a church going - or a movement going - or a collective of some kind. A mailing list, a potluck, a bunch of crazy folks that the government attacks in Waco - even, dare I say, a denomination? Pretty soon, or maybe years later (generations?) that group of folks has grown into the same dogmatic monster that I was seeking to leave in the first place.

Is this the cycle that we seem doomed to repeat? Is this why we're (as a culture) driving our children away from the church as fast as we can can? Are the days of generational church members dead? Should we commit to a congregation and hold on for dear life, or work to find a group that (as close as we can find) matches our convictions? What about lifestyles?

I know this is a group that generally has a sense of unrest when it comes to the standard church offerings that our country has to offer - are we too "church rich" to appreciate what we've got, or has the "american" church become so bankrupt of moral fiber that we bounce from problem to problem across all denominational fronts?

Thoughts?


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doug-again

Adept

Posts: 57

Re: Denominations and the Independent Believer

« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2009, 12:35:03 AM »

Quote from: David Coles on December 01, 2009, 02:49:14 PM

Is this the cycle that we seem doomed to repeat? Is this why we're (as a culture) driving our children away from the church as fast as we can can? Are the days of generational church members dead? Should we commit to a congregation and hold on for dear life, or work to find a group that (as close as we can find) matches our convictions? What about lifestyles?

Thoughts?

Great topic David... ya, i think that in Ecclesiastes, where it talks about a time to live and a time to die, that that applies to movements. Guys just like you get stirred by the Holy Ghost to agitate for change. Charismatic fellas attract people to form movements. Movements take on a life of their own, and they serve great purposes. At some point they stop growing, and get stagnant and dogmatic. At that point, it's time to let the thing die. Instead, things get mechanized and then institutionalized, as you mentioned.

i don't know what you mean by the american church, since i don't know what an american or a church is. i don't know what a guy means by calling himself a Christian anymore; lotsa moral bankruptcy going around for sure.

Start a movement if you think the Spirit is leading you, just make sure folks know what they're getting into. Have fun, sing good songs and have long studies, and talk regularly about what everyone is going to do when the movement dies.

i was talking to one old guy once, who kinda started his own little movement within a larger movement.
He told me his will end when he dies. He told me that during his life, he had greatly resisted his teachings being used to start another denomination. i think that's the solution.

Commit to a congregation for life? What kind? ewwww
Work to find, or move to where there is, a group with similar convictions and lifestyles? Absolutely ya, and keep the expectations realistic.
Doomed to repeat the cycle? Naw, put an expiration date on it, or teach that the movement needs to die at some point. "Not forsaking the assembly of ourselves" is arguably the main verse that all manner of dead and dying congregations and cults have used to keep people from moving on when it's time go. Forsake the foolish and live, and go in the way of understanding.


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Travis

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Posts: 334

Re: Denominations and the Independent Believer

« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2009, 06:08:27 PM »

There's a ton of wisdom in what you say doug-again. I like it.


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Gabriel Anast

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Master

Posts: 1588

Re: Denominations and the Independent Believer

« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2009, 12:52:52 PM »

Quote from: David Coles on December 01, 2009, 02:49:14 PM

Someone like me get's fed up with what he perceives as the things that are "wrong" with the "church".

First, why be "fed up" with a church that is not working as a church? On a fundamental level, no one else has the responsibility of providing one for you.

I know this is tricky, but assume for a moment that there are no other believers around you. Maybe not even your wife. What then?

Hbr 10:19ff Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; And [having] an high priest over the house of God; Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the profession of [our] faith without wavering; (for he [is] faithful that promised;) And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some [is]; but exhorting [one another]: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

Note the context of the passage that every church-goer has had hammered into their heads since sunday school... the context is to the individual. It is about being bold in the blood of Christ to be in God, to enter before Him and hold fast our profession of belief in Him in constancy... in this manner: being full of love and good works.

The passage then explains that we (believers) should provoke one another to live this way: in love and good works... and thus this is the nature and need that is met in meeting together. It is the fundamental part for the working of the gifts of the Spirit, and the righteousness of the believer is to be first manifest toward the household of God.

So... back to the assume there are no other believers anywhere to be found. You can still walk boldly in love and good works, and be right and holy before God without ever entering a church building or assembly of any kind. This is not ideal, so if you are in this place, pray for a body, covet it, desire it.

However, if there are other believers near you, then the necessity spoken of here is to gather yourself to them. This does not necessitate any sort of scheduled meeting. When you are at your believing friends house to bring him a gift and to look into his life to see how he is doing... this is assembling together. If you sit down to write a post on the net that explains to a friend the teahings of Christ and the apostles, this is assembling. Notwithstanding that assembling in person is always better (as I understand it from Paul, mainly) but is not exclusive. Paul sent letters and even at one time a piece of cloth that he had prayed over... that the one sick might touch it.

So... if we start that way... doing well toward the household of faith. Taking the time to see what God has provided me (physically, spiritually, etc) that another in the body needs, and actively giving it, and provoking to love and good works either by example, by teaching, by rebuke, by love and care, by instruction, etc... then this is the body working. If a place of assembly for the purpose of teaching grows out of this, good... if not... its not necessary as I see it... just do not forsake the assembling of yourselves together in order to provoke one another to love and good works.

In doing this, be aware of who the elders in your local body are, and submit yourselves to them as to elders... considering the end of their faith. Seek, covet, desire of God spiritual gifts that you might be of help and use to the body.

I am not trying to obviate other teaching in scripture here... I am trying to dissolve the extra-Biblical teachings on the "assembly" in order to demonstrate that this thing will grow itself (in God's hands) if we just each do what God has called us to.

Quote

I believe that we've been called by God to live a simple lifestyle well below our means and keep our family focused around self-sustainability and remaning focused on the important things in life like one another and our relationship with God.

Yep... that is it (IMO). Just build it on that.

Quote

But what happens? I have an *individual calling* that necessitates a lifestyle change. So, I move my family and in a natural expression of the human condition, I look for like-minded people - other folks who share my individual calling and personal conviction.

This is tenuous as I see it. Look for believers regardless of their calling. You are commanded to minister to the household of God. These might be called any number of places, they might be the wife of the Mayor of the city near you, they might be the pot-head son of a drug dealer... just converted. This is your body.

Quote

Should we commit to a congregation and hold on for dear life, or work to find a group that (as close as we can find) matches our convictions?

IMO forget convictions... let the Bible guide always and be convicted of sin as demonstrated there, and be sufficed with righteousnes as demonstrated there.

Quote

What about lifestyles?

Let lifestyle change with maturity. Are there believers you know (real believers, not just "Christians") that are wealthy and worldly to a degree that makes you uncomfortable? OK... love them, and help them to mature. If the Spirit of God is in them, and they desire righteousness, they will love it "more than life" and will learn to put off the world and minister to the body as you do. Are there believers you know that grew up Muslim and still have a lot of family that is? Culturally you may never really mesh, but that is OK... lifestyle is nothing. Christ is everything.

Do you have believing friends who you feel are a little too exposed at the lake or swimming pool? Tell them, in love... that you just can't go swimming with them in good conscience (maybe you are the weaker brother) and let it be that. See what God does. Don't look for people with similar lifestyles and convictions... look for believers. Grow up in the faith with them.

Those are my thoughts anyway.

We are this way here... we are not all living off the land, we are not all poor or rich, we don't all wear beards, we don't all wear dresses... etc. Our fellowship is marked by men that are heads of their households, women that follow their man... not the collective church "conviction," men and families that are growing and changing as we know God better, and a general hunger for and inspection of the word of God. Our meetings are always characterized by these questions, "What did you study this week?" "Did you find anything new?" "What have you been praying about?" etc... then discussion on passage after passage... concordances open, ipods (for some) scrolling, internet references being checked...

But, let me tell you, we are not all alike in lifestyle and conviction. It is as very wide array... its really amazing actually. Maybe in conviction we are becoming closer... but... even that is something interesting and amazing to watch, and always seems to have unexpected expression.

gabe


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David Coles

Learning

Posts: 46

Re: Denominations and the Independent Believer

« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2009, 04:25:32 PM »

Quote

We are this way here... we are not all living off the land, we are not all poor or rich, we don't all wear beards, we don't all wear dresses... etc. Our fellowship is marked by men that are heads of their households, women that follow their man... not the collective church "conviction," men and families that are growing and changing as we know God better, and a general hunger for and inspection of the word of God. Our meetings are always characterized by these questions, "What did you study this week?" "Did you find anything new?" "What have you been praying about?" etc... then discussion on passage after passage... concordances open, ipods (for some) scrolling, internet references being checked...

This is good - it does touch on the very root of my question which really boils down to a church question: What is church for and what should it look like and what does that MEAN for me and my family? Who do we associate with? Who do we find fellowship with? Where is our allegiance, to the church?

Through a number of circumstances, we're able to reevaluate our position on these topics - coming from a background of absolute submission to the church and with a priority placed on the church above and beyond even family issues. We're left with the ultimate question - aren't we called to BE the church as opposed to called to GO to church? I'm not sure where this leaves us, although it's starting to look as though we can't necessarily look to a conventional single-congregation solution... One of the things that drives me the craziest is how there can be 10 different congregations within 5 minutes of my house, each one steadfastly "carrying out the work of God" without so much as a sideways glance at one another. I guess at the end of the day, my desire is simple - to transcend the churches and be part of the Church.

We're somewhat trapped in our own house right now because of some medical issues with our youngest son. Once we make it through the winter, we'll be starting to proactively try to figure this out. At the moment my vision is looking something like this:

1) Primary worship and fellowship is occurring in our house with our family. Structured worship and Bible sharing, etc.

2)We literally church-hop on purpose for several months with the express goal of meeting those folks who are like minded in their goals of living for Christ and growing.

3)We build a network of friends and fellow Christians that spans multiple churches and denominations and attempt to fellowship and worship New Testament style and almost function as a part-time home church without "stealing" people from their regular church homes.

4)Experience and enjoy worship across the spectrum of available congregations along with our home focus, which basically means that church is what we do at home with more people around to share it.

One of the glaring questions I have, thanks to a decade of programming, is this - do I need a pastor over me? I am keenly aware of the need for accountability and for having someone in spiritual authority over me - this is not an attempt to doge these things and rule my own life, but does it have to come from a traditional pastor? I know that, hypothetically, if I was stranded on an island, that I have the full capacity in Christ to mediate my own affairs between myself and God - my salvation is not in doubt and neither is my ability to walk and grow in the Spirit. BUT - is it okay to float free on purpose when there are 8-10 different pastors in my town?

I guess I feel super-cautious about this... but honestly we've been burned pretty bad and the fire I feel for building God's kingdom is just that - for building the Kingdom and not for pouring my life into another church that may or may not be doing the right things...

SO - can I go out into the Global Body of Christ - the Church - and identify and attach to like-minded followers of Christ (by like-minded, I don't really mean lifestyle or even calling - simply a burning desire to grow closer to God and do his work with their lives, regardless of their position on that path)

-OR-

Do I need to anchor myself in a church and take the bad with the good?

Does this make sense? I agree wholeheartedly with finding and worshiping and fellowshiping with a wide variety of believers. I don't want to be non-denominational, I want to be TRANS-denominational... is that even possible, practically speaking?

On an unrelated note, I picked up a copy of George Barna's book Revolution... its starting to sound very similar to some of the things Gabe was saying. Anyone read it?

Dave
Nutrimill Grinder


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Gabriel Anast

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Posts: 1588

Re: Denominations and the Independent Believer

« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2009, 12:33:16 PM »

I guess instead of answering this post point by point or whatever, I'll just give some general thoughts:

As concerns typical churches: My opinion is that there are really no denominations. As far as I can tell, all denominations (even non-denom's):

Hire their teachers
Do not allow a (more or less) simultaneous plurality of teaching elders
Suppress the gifts of the Spirit as concerns the body benefiting the body
Have no clear concept of Biblical headship
Actively subvert marriage in these common ways: Directly teach the wives and children, specifically removing the husband / father from this duty, teach that a woman may with hold herself from her man (and by implication, vise versa), teach that typical partnership marriage is right.
Present the "church experience" as entertainment / inspirational help / re-charging, etc instead of plain teaching, judging among the believers, and a place of observing and meeting the needs of the body

In my opinion, denominational differences (so called) are irrelevant... the point is that the vast majority of the modern American Church has nothing to do with the body of Christ.

So, to answer one of your first questions, "Where is our allegiance, to the church?", My answer is an exasperated (not with you, but with the black teaching that has so blinded so many) No! Please no...

My thought is that an Ephesian might have asked the same question about Christ... "So, my duty is still to the temple of Diana, I understand that, but... how should I connect with the body of Christ? I mean, maybe I should look for women at the temple that believe in Christ? I could use them instead of the ones that don't?"

Oddly enough I say this despite having a clear call to join myself to a certain church for about 2 years (in the past). By this I mean that God specifically led me to attend this church for a time. It was unexpected to me. It was there that I learned how to pray differently than I had to that point understood.

Quote

One of the glaring questions I have, thanks to a decade of programming, is this - do I need a pastor over me? I am keenly aware of the need for accountability and for having someone in spiritual authority over me - this is not an attempt to doge these things and rule my own life, but does it have to come from a traditional pastor? I know that, hypothetically, if I was stranded on an island, that I have the full capacity in Christ to mediate my own affairs between myself and God - my salvation is not in doubt and neither is my ability to walk and grow in the Spirit. BUT - is it okay to float free on purpose when there are 8-10 different pastors in my town?

The generally promoted idea of "spiritual authority" freaks me out. Paul is clear that every man's head is Christ, and Christ's is God. I know this does not obviate the position of a governmental ruler, or even one in the body of Christ, or the honor that is due these. However, there is no one that a believer must be accountable to but God. This does not obviate confessing one's sins to another in order to keep oneself from continuing in them... still the accountability is to God.

The hand is needed by the eye, hand by the mouth, etc... but all are accountable to the head alone.

There are elders that are manifest by their actions and history, some are called to pastor (shepherd / rule) and others to teach, some to be missionaries (apostles of the church), etc... but they can fail just like you and I... they are part of the body just as you and I... their head is Christ just like you and I. I say all this believing that I am qualified as an elder, and called to teach and to rule.

Anyway, I guess I am saying, I would take my focus off of "church" completely. Assume there are no denominations, only believers that are steadfast in the faith, or believers that are blown by every wind of doctrine... seek to understand why the difference exists, and how to be the one, and strengthen others (specifically your wife and children) to be steadfast in belief as well.

Here are a couple things that might help clarify some of what I wrote above:

What is a False Teacher?
Why is Jesus not a Rebel?
Re: Church Authority?
Headship: Practical Application


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LearningDad

Learning

Posts: 10

Organic Christianity

« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2010, 01:52:02 PM »

We've felt a lot of frustrations with church as we've known it - non-denominational, "reformed in doctrine, charismatic in worship". While there were several teaching pastors in the congregation, they seemed to spend the bulk of their time during the week in meetings, and the bulk of the "tithes" collected on staff for various programs, on buildings/venues, on glossy magazines, things we've come to see as optional, not necessities. And discipleship that seemed very structured - got to be accountable, got to be discipled by somebody, got to be running discipleship groups, got to use this or that workbook for discipleship, got to go to the leaders' meetings, etc.

Anyway.

For a variety of reasons (incl. babies) we've been staying home, and reading the Bible through (from the beginning) as a family - trying to live out each day for Jesus.

More recently I've heard the term "organic christianity" and found there are a bunch of books on it... Occasionally I'm tempted to read more but mostly I don't want yet another well meaning "leader" telling me how to do it, so I'm sticking with the Bible at this point. It is reassuring in a way that I'm not alone and therefore hopefully not (completely) going off the rails like we always feared would happen to those who stopped going to church...

A couple of years ago I would have found this all very strange and dubious - but now it seems natural. When a friend (and pastor of the place we used to go to) asked where we go to church now, I said "The church of Read Your Own Bible" and he said "Excuse me???" trying to figure out if there really was such a church... ha ha.

Anyway, any opinions on the organic "movement"? Is this like the non-conformist's new uniform, or a genuine progression towards more authentic faith?


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Gabriel Anast

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Posts: 1588

Re: Denominations and the Independent Believer

« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2010, 01:19:11 PM »

I am not sure about the organic church movement... but... if it means, "according to nature and God's design" then I guess it would be right.

In short I would say that there are just a couple things that seem to break the body: false teachers and adherents to false teachers. Look at the false teachers thread to help find passages that identify false teachers and look at the passages about sin and righteousness of the believer to identify adherents to false teachers. Separate yourself from these and join yourself in love and "need meeting" with the others and you have the body of Christ I think.

--gabe


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