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[denim&lace]

HEY!  Don't be wishing our summer away there HappyWifey!

[HappyWifey]

My brother was just telling us he is seeing signs of an early spring.. What about down there D&L?

I'm still wishing I had lots of goodies to ferment though.

[denim&lace]

Well, we just got several feet of snow, but the weather has been warmer.  Maybe.    I'd sure be tickled if spring came early this year! 

[ForeverGirl]

How's everybody's fermenting going?

I haven't done much lately, but we're still enjoying nice crisp turnips. Definitely our favorite so far.

Here's a cool article that includes a lot of good links in the text on natural refrigeration...  I guess you could use some of these methods to keep your fermented foods cool if you don't have a cellar. It seems labor intensive at first, but I think once you were set up, one or all of these methods would work well to keep fermented foods cool.

http://survivalscoop.blogspot.com/2009/02/refrigeration.html

Beka

[amy3js]

About 3 or 4 days into my experiment, I noticed that the lids on my jars were mounded high and tight in the middle, so I slowly unscrewed the lids and they both fizzed and bubbled over a lot.   Since then I have just left them alone, but left the lids a bit loser.  They haven't fizzed or bubbled anymore, but they both have an odor. One is sorta mild, but not what I would call pleasant. The other definitely has more of a kick in the smell, and oddly enough seems to smell a bit better, but has what looks like a couple darker and possibly slimy pieces floating around. I'm not sure what to think of that. The sharper smelling one lost more liquid in the fizz debacle and so more of its cabbage is sitting above the water. The cabbage above the water looks fine though.

I was able to purchase the fermenting book previously suggested. I have barley read the first 5 pages, but I'm hoping to carve out some more time for that asap.

[denim&lace]

I think I'll be growing some turnips this year for fermenting Beka.

I've got more saurkraut and cauliflower going. 

Can anybody tell me what the best containers are for this?  What are the advantages of using a crock rather than jars?  Anything else? 

[~esposita~]

OK - Questions off the top of my head:

Re:  Non-iodized salt  Real Salt has a small measure of iodine in it, according to my container.  Would you recommend using a different brand?

Re:  Coarse Salt  I don't presently have any coarse salt; can i still use fine salt?  And should I therefore reduce the amount used?

You see, I tried to make kimchee a bit ago and it was WAY too salty (i used fine RealSalt - Redmond brand)  I also tried to make sauerkraut before but I think I let it ferment warm for too, too long and it just didn't taste like we had hoped.  It was... way strong.  So, with these poor experiences I'm a little lacto-fermented-food-shy but I really don't want to be!

Re:  Grape Leaves Can I use a wild grape leaf?  I'll have quite a few come spring!

Well, I'm gearing up to try this out... I'm gonna go for sauerkraut and kimchee first... again.

[TenThousandYears]

Can anybody tell me what the best containers are for this?  What are the advantages of using a crock rather than jars?

Hi Denim & Lace,

Great question!  We have done both here - in jars and in crocks.  Some advantages of using jars are that they are easy to obtain, less espensive, and you can ferment smaller amounts at a time. (rather than one big large project).

With the open crocks, you can do larger amounts, but there is the inconvenience of having to skim the kahm yeast off of it everyday.  Also, it tends to 'stink' more!    We had a large open crock going of pickles in our living room once and let me say that it was not a big hit! 

What I love is the Harsch Fermenting Crocks.  They have a special lid that is able to keep the oxygen from getting in, thereby eliminating the need to skim any yeast because there is little to none with these crocks.  There is a little hole that is able to let the fermenting gasses escape, but with a water-filled ridge by the lid, the hole is not able to ever let the oxygen in.   I don't think we have ever had a failed batch with these crocks.  You just fill them and let them go for 4 -6 weeks or more, then it is ready. 

The disadvantages of the Harsch crocks are that they are initially expensive (but would make a great heirloom!) and, depending on the size you get, they can tend to get heavy when filled.  You don't have to really move them, but we do after the first three days as we will take them down to the cooler basement for the cool storage.

We did the Berry Herbal Brew that Bulk Herb Store sells in both the jars and crocks.  Our jars had lots of mold in them, but when we did the juice in the Harsch crock and it turned out beautiful.

The jars are great, though, and I think it is great to use both systems.  One time I found a Mason jar of some fermented sauerkraut that was a year old in the basement.  I had read how this stuff is supposed to be good after great lengths of time, so it was time to put that to the test!  After a quick prayer - (don't think there wasn't some good healthy fear involved here!!! ) I tried it and it was quite good! 

Two other things about the jars vs. crocks - the jars lids can rust and get 'stuck' because of the escaping gasses and liquids, and the taste of the kraut in the jars, in my experience, is a little more 'bitter' than what comes out of the Harsch crock. (but not enough to stop me from using the jars)

Hope that helps!   

[denim&lace]

Ten Thousand Years- thank you!  That's exactly the kind of  information I was looking for. 

esposita-Wild grape leaves work great for pickles.  I would guess that they would work well for this too...

[HappyWifey]

That was great information Ten Thousand Years!

[boysmama]

Wow! Those Harsch crocks look nice. I've wanted to check into the glaze ingredients as quite a bit of crockery is contaminated with one or more heavy metals. Has anyone looked into that aspect of the Harsch crocks?

 Here is something that works on the same principle, but for alot less money- quart, half gallon, and gallon from $10-20.
http://www.culturesforhealth.com/Vegetable-Fermentation-c10/

[Beth]

Wow! Those Harsch crocks look nice. I've wanted to check into the glaze ingredients as quite a bit of crockery is contaminated with one or more heavy metals. Has anyone looked into that aspect of the Harsch crocks?

 Here is something that works on the same principle, but for alot less money- quart, half gallon, and gallon from $10-20.
http://www.culturesforhealth.com/Vegetable-Fermentation-c10/

      I wonder if you can find just the plastic lids that fit glass gallon jars? If you could, you could make your own for just a couple of dollars. The airlocks and rubber stoppers can be found at any place that sells wine making supplies. Cheap. But I'm not sure about the plastic lids to fit the gallon jars. Most people have glass gallon jars on hand. Don't they? If anybody knows where to find the lids, post it! I would be interested in making fermented veggies this way. No air in the jar...no scum to skim off!

[denim&lace]

I just use 1/2 gallon mason jars with plastic lids, and I don't have scum on my ferments.  I just put the lid on but don't tighten it down. 

http://www.canningpantry.com/bawimoplstca.html

[denim&lace]

All I can find on the glaze so far on the crocks is that it is a lead free glaze....

http://www.canningpantry.com/harsch-fermenting-crocks.html

toward the bottom

[SC lady]

I've been experimenting with a sourdough starter that is very basic & thought I'd pass along this informative web site. It's written by a professional chef . . . which means the information is thorough and there is a lot of it  BUT he has lots of pictures and offers his measurements both in volume and weight for precision.

He also describes how to start, maintain and properly feed a starter. I've been amazed how simple it is to keep without refrigeration. It has also been eye-opening to watch flour and water double itself overnight. . . It's such a reliable & amazing process that requires the patience to wait and allow what God created to work in the way He intended. . . . gives new meaning to "Give us this day our daily bread."

SOURDOUGH HOME
(No, that isn't a picture of my bread. Just something similar)


Oh, and found this interesting article on how naturally fermented foods help blood sugar here:

ACIDIC FOODS, ANOTHER WAY TO CONTROL BLOOD GLUCOSE By David Mendosa

Fermented foods also reduce blood glucose levels. The natural fermentation of starch and sugars by a yeast starter culture that produces lactic and propionic acid is what makes sourdough bread.

[Beth]

I just use 1/2 gallon mason jars with plastic lids, and I don't have scum on my ferments.  I just put the lid on but don't tighten it down. 

http://www.canningpantry.com/bawimoplstca.html

       I have those plastic lids for wide mouth or half gallon jars. You could do the same with a rubber stopper and airlock too. Cost about 3.oo or less. But I would like to try the gallon jars if I could find plastic lids to fit. The metal lids rust from the fermentation process. Also I have tried just putting the lid on loosely and I get scum. But I live in the south...more yeasty type critters down here. Please remember to put it on loosely pressure can build up and break the glass, even explode if its warm!
      Still looking for plastic lids to fit gallon jars.

[HappyWifey]

I have mushrooms (non lacto fermented, in vinegar) and radishes going right now... Yumm can't wait to try them!

[denim&lace]

I just use 1/2 gallon mason jars with plastic lids, and I don't have scum on my ferments.  I just put the lid on but don't tighten it down. 

http://www.canningpantry.com/bawimoplstca.html

       I have those plastic lids for wide mouth or half gallon jars. You could do the same with a rubber stopper and airlock too. Cost about 3.oo or less. But I would like to try the gallon jars if I could find plastic lids to fit. The metal lids rust from the fermentation process. Also I have tried just putting the lid on loosely and I get scum. But I live in the south...more yeasty type critters down here. Please remember to put it on loosely pressure can build up and break the glass, even explode if its warm!
      Still looking for plastic lids to fit gallon jars.

Yes, I do remember to put the lid on loosely.   And I got to thinking about the difference in location.  I'm sure you do have lots more yeasty critters to contend with.

[Beth]

   D&L,
         I'm sure you did know about the lids. I hope I didn't sound bossy,sometimes I come across that way. LOL  I guess it comes from being a mom for so long!  And actually the only time anyone would have problems with lids and breaking glass is in the first few days and in warm weather.
         I have also found that if whey is added at the beginning like NT recipes suggest there is far less of the bubbly fermenting stage. I think the veggies stay crisper too.

[denim&lace]

I didn't take it as bossy, Beth.  I took it as just a friendly reminder.     It certainly wouldn't be beyond imagining that I might forget. 

[SC lady]

Wow! Those Harsch crocks look nice. I've wanted to check into the glaze ingredients as quite a bit of crockery is contaminated with one or more heavy metals. Has anyone looked into that aspect of the Harsch crocks?

 Here is something that works on the same principle, but for alot less money- quart, half gallon, and gallon from $10-20.
http://www.culturesforhealth.com/Vegetable-Fermentation-c10/

Thanks for the link!
I've got my 1/2 gal vegetable master working on some saurkraut that looks AMAZING . . .
SOoooo easy to use . . .

AND here's a handy tip for people that dread pounding cabbage . . . DON'T 
I learned this tip from a friend.
Measure out your sea salt.
Cut up your veggies (small/thin -- expose lots of surface material).
Toss with salt, in a large bowl, cover with a towel and let sit for a half hour (maybe more?) or so . . .
The juices will be drawn out.
Pack your jars, & just press the veggies tight.
DONE!

[Beth]

Has anybody ever tried this with sweet potatoes? I have left over from last years garden... I'm surprised they're still good. Sweet potatoes don't last as long as regular. Anyway they are sprouting and I want to use them up. I could can them but I don't feel like starting that just yet. I do want to do more of this kind of preservation this year. Wish I had that book, looks so fascinating.
Does the book mention sweet potatoes? Or should I just wing it?

[Deb]

WOW! Thanks SC Lady for the links to the sourdough site. I always made my starter from rye as shown by ABOVE RUBIES MAGAZINE. You can see the video on their youtube site too. And I NEVER knew you could dry out and save your starter!!! That is very good for adding to survival stores, having a way to bake bread if no yeast is left.

[Beth]

I found a recipe for sweet potatoe soda (fly) in NT. I changed it some but, I went and looked just a bit ago and bubbles are starting to rise up! So it must be working. I think on Monday I will strain it and put it in plastic water bottles and leave to get even more bubbly. For another day or so.
This is what I did... peeled and grated two large sweet potatoes
 added 3/4 cup lime juice
 2 cups white sugar (didn't have sucanat)
1 Tble. mace boiled in 1 cup water
3 whole cloves
pinch nutmeg
pinch cinnamon
1 gallon water
1 tble. yogurt whey
mix together let sit 3 days, I stirred it a couple of times a day.
....we'll see how it tastes, it smells good... like egg nog, sort of.

[SC lady]

Beth, that sounds yummy!

I've never used plastic with my ferments as I've found it to be unstable and easily contaminates the food/liquid. Whether I'm storing whey, kefir, kombucha, sourdough, sauerkraut, kimchee, pickles or fermenting other garden produce, all my sources recommend glass -- not metal or plastic. . . . I do use some plastic for short-term refrigeration of non-acidic leftovers though (not my lacto-stuff though) -- although I'm gradually phasing that out in favor of glass  . . . So, just info that may be helpful 

[Beth]

I've never used plastic with my ferments as I've found it to be unstable and easily contaminates the food/liquid. Whether I'm storing whey, kefir, kombucha, sourdough, sauerkraut, kimchee, pickles or fermenting other garden produce, all my sources recommend glass -- not metal or plastic. . . . I do use some plastic for short-term refrigeration of non-acidic leftovers though (not my lacto-stuff though) -- although I'm gradually phasing that out in favor of glass  . . . So, just info that may be helpful 

oh....that is good info to know. I sort of knew that in the back of my head, but just didn't research it more. My daughter had said something about it too, when I mentioned I was going to do that. She wondered if I really wanted to use plastic bottles and also thought glass would be better. Well, maybe I should bottle it in qt. canning jars with just the plastic lids. I only made a gallon so it shouldn't be sitting with the plastic lids too long. With a little head space it shouldn't actually touch the lids.
I want to do some vegetables from  my garden this way, this summer. I've tried brine pickles before and the problem I had with regular canning lids was  the salt from the ferment would cause the lids to begin to rust... so, I thought maybe I would use the plastic lids instead. Do you think that would work? 

[SC lady]

Yes, I do use plastic lids for some things -- like the plastic jar lids that come with mayonnaise.
My thinking there is that as long as it's not touching the food, I'm good 

[Beth]

I found a recipe for sweet potatoe soda (fly) in NT. I changed it some but, I went and looked just a bit ago and bubbles are starting to rise up! So it must be working. I think on Monday I will strain it and put it in plastic water bottles and leave to get even more bubbly. For another day or so.
This is what I did... peeled and grated two large sweet potatoes
 added 3/4 cup lime juice
 2 cups white sugar (didn't have sucanat)
1 Tble. mace boiled in 1 cup water
3 whole cloves
pinch nutmeg
pinch cinnamon
1 gallon water
1 tble. yogurt whey
mix together let sit 3 days, I stirred it a couple of times a day.
....we'll see how it tastes, it smells good... like egg nog, sort of.

So I made this and we've "tested" it... its good. A little too sweet. But maybe I'll add less sugar next time. Or maybe in a couple days it'll be less sweet. It has a mild spicy flavor and a peach color. So its kind of pretty in the glass on ice. I was surprised how fast it got bubbly I just added yogurt whey.  A ginger bug takes longer than that. Although we like that too. I need to get some powdered ginger...

[~esposita~]

Beka, if you see this in the not to distant future  , when you LF the Radishes and Turnips, did you use a recipe from the "Preserving Foods Without..." book or did you just 'wing' it using the same method as saurkraut?

Thanks!

[ForeverGirl]

Yeah, just stuff the jar full of pieces that are about 1 inch cubes, add salt and whey, cover with water.  There might be a turnip recipe in Nourishing Traditions... can't remember...

HTH's,

Beka

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