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[amy3js]

Ok, so I plan on trying to ferment my first jar of veggies after I get to the store next week. I want to make sure I have the process and ingredients down right. So correct me if any of this is wrong:

Cut up some veg (I'm probably going to do cabbage, onion, pepper?? maybe garlic??)
stuff in jar
add non-iodized salt (can't remember how much at the moment. my salt is sea salt, this is fine, right??)
fill with filtered water till veg is covered
make sure to leave 1in head room for gasses
put lid on jar (is it better to do a normal lid and open occasionally for off gassing or use cloth and rubber band?)

considering that I am not using whey, how long should I give the proccess? What should I look for to know when it is done?  And when it is done, how should I store it? Just put a lid on it and put in a cool cupboard? How long will it be good for? My hubbs was slightly incredulous when I told him I didn't need to can these veg after the fermenting process. I explained it was because you had already allowed to good bacteria to multiply to such a degree that the bad bacteria was unlikely to take over- is my understanding correct?

I know I really need to get a book on this, I'm just unable to at the moment.

Thanks for all the help ladies!! 

[ForeverGirl]

Ok, so I plan on trying to ferment my first jar of veggies after I get to the store next week. I want to make sure I have the process and ingredients down right. So correct me if any of this is wrong:

Cut up some veg (I'm probably going to do cabbage, onion, pepper?? maybe garlic??)
stuff in jar
add non-iodized salt (can't remember how much at the moment. my salt is sea salt, this is fine, right??)
fill with filtered water till veg is covered
make sure to leave 1in head room for gasses
put lid on jar (is it better to do a normal lid and open occasionally for off gassing or use cloth and rubber band?)

considering that I am not using whey, how long should I give the proccess? What should I look for to know when it is done?  And when it is done, how should I store it? Just put a lid on it and put in a cool cupboard? How long will it be good for? My hubbs was slightly incredulous when I told him I didn't need to can these veg after the fermenting process. I explained it was because you had already allowed to good bacteria to multiply to such a degree that the bad bacteria was unlikely to take over- is my understanding correct?

I know I really need to get a book on this, I'm just unable to at the moment.

Thanks for all the help ladies!! 

Here is a list of the veggies I've fermented and the way they turned out in taste and texture:

* - veggies I will go out of my way to buy and ferment from now on.

carrots -  small baby whole - firm, odd blend of sweet and bitter (next time I plan to do just the juice as a kvass)

sweet peppers - sliced up - slimy and limp, taste okay

* sugar peas in pod - whole - crisp, good taste.

* cauliflower - in radish-size chunks - firm, crisp, great taste.

cucumbers - slices - a little soft and slick, good taste.

* turnips - 1 inch cubes - firm, crisp, best flavor of any veggie so far.

squash - slices - terrible all around

* radishes - halved - firm, crisp, good taste.

broccoli - fairly firm and crisp, good taste, gets softer as it gets older

* onions - in slices and whole pearl - crisp, great flavor

* garlic - cloves - crisp, great flavor

hot peppers - habeneros  - whole - hot!!! haven't tried them yet.

swiss chard ribs - not done yet. Look firm.

* lemons - in slices - wonderful taste and smell, use juice only

* pomegranite - seeds/fruit in cherry juice - great taste and same texture as fresh. A lot like Kefir d'uva

* salsa - very nice.  Good taste and texture.

* Cabbage - sauerkraut with carrots and purple and white cabbage - wonderful taste and texture.


Your plans sound right to me, but I've never fermented without whey... except for sauerkraut.

 You can open your jars and smell and taste your product as often as you like. Without whey it will probably take a week or two to get  your veggies as fermented as you like. With the whey, I find we like to start eating it around day 5... but that it gets better and is "done" for us in about 2 weeks. Just open your jars and check every now and then. Don't know about lids versus cloth... I've always used a lid.

Yeah, your bacteria explanation sounds right.

gotta go -

Beka

[ForeverGirl]

Here is a no whey recipe from the Preserving Food without Canning or Freezing book.

 Sauerkraut in Glass Jars - M. -M Boulo, La Gacilly                   pg 68

Firm Cabbage
10 Juniper berries or 1 or 2 bay leaves
1 tablespoon coarse sea salt per jar of cabbage
Hot water
1 quart glass jars with rubber seals

Scald jars and rubbr seals. Grate the cabbage and pack it firmly, adding some of the bay leaves or juniper berries as you fill them.
Top off each jar with one tablespoon of coarse sea salt and a bit of hot, unchlorinated water. With very juicy cabbage, only a few spoonfuls of water are needed.
Close each jar with it's rubber seal. Let stand for two to three days in the kitchen, then store in the cellar. Wait one month before eating.
I've been using this method for four years. I'm very happy with it, and I've never lost a jar of sauerkraut yet. My sauerkraut keeps until the following summer, and we even take some with us on vacation. It's very convenient and quite tasty.
I prepare pickles in the same way, sliced if they are large, but stored in smaller jars.



Beka's notes: I have used this recipe with success. Transferring to cold storage (cellar) is to slow down the fermentation process. The product tastes better if it doesn't continue to ferment at warm temperatures. I didn't use bay leaves or juniper berries. I've had sauerkraut made this way by my grandmother that was decades old. It was very good. She used regular ball jar lids (that have the rubber seal) and placed newspaper under the jars so that when the gases bubbled and ran out, the newspaper soaked up the mess. I do this too. I don't screw on the lids really tight either.

[amy3js]

Wow, lots of info- thanks!! I think I will switch the sweet peppers to sweet peas, that sounds better.  I'm not good with limp and slimy. 

I will post how things turn out. I'm thinking about doing 1 jar with whey and 1 without, just to see how different they taste and how different the process is.

Will the jars overflow while fermenting even with the lids on? Is that what you were saying with the newspaper under the jars? Or that they overflow only when you take the lids off? Or only when doing sauerkraut?

Sorry, I feel like I am way to inquisitive lately, but I've just been feeling the urge to stop the thinking and start the doing and I'm overly timid about things I've never done before. asking questions eases my mind. 

[RunAmokFarm]

Oh my!  It may be my preggo hormones, but as I read this very new idea (to me!), I feel excited... and panicky at the same time!  Am having a VERY hard time wrapping my mind around such things as uncanned salsa or spaghetti sauce, as the term "botulism" comes to mind!   

While I have never made (or used kefir) and only used a very small amount of store-bought sauerkraut, this does make sense (kind of!) so am thinking I may actually try it...  but I am not a great cook, nor am I very adventurous when it comes to recipes.  I do make jelly (ha) so am familiar with basic canning - so again, feeling panic at a completely unheated jar of food that has been sitting out... for months or possibly years!!!   

Now, to get started, I do know how to make fresh cheese - The cheese I make has always been from fresh, raw goat milk, but I don't have any raw milk, and at this point, do not have access to any... so is is possible to make cheese from regular ol' store milk?  (yeah, pasturized  )  If I can, then would the whey from that process work for this "lacto-fermenting"?

Also, if we don't use whey... then what do we all call this?  Just "fermenting"??   
J

[amy3js]

Oh my!  It may be my preggo hormones
J

Did I miss your preggo announcement??? Congrats!!!

[herbfever]

the process is.

Will the jars overflow while fermenting even with the lids on? Is that what you were saying with the newspaper under the jars? Or that they overflow only when you take the lids off? Or only when doing sauerkraut?

While fermenting things can get bubbly and overflow. If you are going to use lids don't screw them on too tight while fermenting. You don't want the gasses to build up and break the jar. 

[herbalmom]

Oh my!  It may be my preggo hormones, but as I read this very new idea (to me!), I feel excited... and panicky at the same time!  Am having a VERY hard time wrapping my mind around such things as uncanned salsa or spaghetti sauce, as the term "botulism" comes to mind!   

While I have never made (or used kefir) and only used a very small amount of store-bought sauerkraut, this does make sense (kind of!) so am thinking I may actually try it...  but I am not a great cook, nor am I very adventurous when it comes to recipes.  I do make jelly (ha) so am familiar with basic canning - so again, feeling panic at a completely unheated jar of food that has been sitting out... for months or possibly years!!!   

As far as I know spaghetti sauce is NOT something that you ferment. I would think it would taste awful anyways since fermenting 'sours' the food- sour spaghetti sauce=

As far as the food not spoiling, fermenting makes the food acid which is what preserves it. In a way, it's sorta like 'prespoiling' the food but CONTROLLING what bacteria, yeasts, etc does the job. Also, the high salt content helps preserve it as well.  HTH Blessings ~herbalmom

[herbfever]

Oh my!  It may be my preggo hormones, but as I read this very new idea (to me!), I feel excited... and panicky at the same time!  Am having a VERY hard time wrapping my mind around such things as uncanned salsa or spaghetti sauce, as the term "botulism" comes to mind!   

While I have never made (or used kefir) and only used a very small amount of store-bought sauerkraut, this does make sense (kind of!) so am thinking I may actually try it...  but I am not a great cook, nor am I very adventurous when it comes to recipes.  I do make jelly (ha) so am familiar with basic canning - so again, feeling panic at a completely unheated jar of food that has been sitting out... for months or possibly years!!!   

Now, to get started, I do know how to make fresh cheese - The cheese I make has always been from fresh, raw goat milk, but I don't have any raw milk, and at this point, do not have access to any... so is is possible to make cheese from regular ol' store milk?  (yeah, pasturized  )  If I can, then would the whey from that process work for this "lacto-fermenting"?

Also, if we don't use whey... then what do we all call this?  Just "fermenting"??   
J

Hi J,

 I am a canner as well, very specific that thing are canned properly so as not to risk botulism, and a fermenter.lol!

 Botulism doesn't like acidic environments full of good bacteria which you get after fermenting.

 I don't know the answer to your cheese question. The easiest way I know of to get whey is by straining yogurt overnight through cheesecloth or a coffee strainer basket on top of a measuring cup. The whey strains into the cup and the curd is on top. You could make dip or season the yogurt curd and spread it on crackers.

eta: Don't fear. If you can chop veggies you can ferment. It is so easy!
  

[AndysJess]

So, to get the whey from yogurt, would I have to use yogurt made from fresh, raw milk or can I use plain yogurt from the store?

[herbfever]

So, to get the whey from yogurt, would I have to use yogurt made from fresh, raw milk or can I use plain yogurt from the store?

 I have read blogs and know of atleast one herbalist who recommends using regular plain Dannon. It has been years and years since I made the yogurt curd "cheese" so I do know from personal experience Dannon seperated very well but I do not ferment with dairy so can only pass on research info.

[RunAmokFarm]

1.  Amy3Js -- Yes, we are expecting!  This was a BIG SURPRISE, as with my surgery (partial throidectomy + cancer) we were NOT planning a new little one... but elk huntin' with the hubby can be "spontaneous" -- beautiful, crisp weather, romantic scenery... no children around...     Did I ever mention that I LOVE hunting season?  (grin)

2.  Herb fever -- thank you, that makes more sense, but still confused on the salsa/spaghetti sauce, because aren't tomatoes naturally acidic - yet they are one of the biggies for botulism?  I will try and research a bit more on my own as well.  Otherwise, the rest of the harder foods make sense to me... kinda.  LOL

Also, I second Andy'sJess' question regarding the yogurt -- should it be homemade, or can I use a "natural", plain yogurt from the grocery store?  (I imagine that should be just fine??) 

3.   Herbalmom -- I read in a post, quoted toward the beginning of this thread where Jessi stated "You can also ferment things like salsa and spaghetti sauce, which I've heard are really tasty, but I haven't tried that yet. I am doing my first batch today."  Then Beka said "*salsa - very nice. Good taste and texture."  So, it seems plausible that speghetti sauce might be ok too?  (Though I do agree that "sour" speghetti sauce might be a little weird.)   

Regardless, am getting excited about some of this.  My hubby loves sauerkraut (the store-bought stuff has never been a "favorite" of mine, but maybe if I make some at home it will be better!)  Either way, if it turns out ok, then my man will be a happy camper!   
J

[herbfever]

12.  Herb fever -- thank you, that makes more sense, but still confused on the salsa/spaghetti sauce, because aren't tomatoes naturally acidic - yet they are one of the biggies for botulism?  I will try and research a bit more on my own as well.  Otherwise, the rest of the harder foods make sense to me... kinda.  LOL

Also, I second Andy'sJess' question regarding the yogurt -- should it be homemade, or can I use a "natural", plain yogurt from the grocery store?  (I imagine that should be just fine??) 

Regardless, am getting excited about some of this.  My hubby loves sauerkraut (the store-bought stuff has never been a "favorite" of mine, but maybe if I make some at home it will be better!)  Either way, if it turns out ok, then my man will be a happy camper!   
J

 I haven't tried fermenting salsa or spaghetti sauce. I even stopped canning them with the exception of ketchup.  I have a tomato intolerance so use them very little. Nourishing Traditions has a fermented salsa recipe. In addition to the tomato she adds lemon juice and whey. So she is bumping the acid and has the beneficial bacteria.  I am not a fan of the recipes I tried in NT so I certainly won't be testing this.

 Now the tomato sauce recipe in the Preserving Food book is a canner's worst nightmare! lol. I won't try it myself but I also live in America and have been conditioned to fear bacteria. 

I think Dannon would be fine based  on what I've read but don't use dairy. No real personal experience using whey to ferment.

Hopefully, Beka will chime in on the salsa and whey. 

I haven't abandoned canning by any means I have added fermentation to various preserving methods. I also use it as a probiotic. I am not a huge fan of the supplement aisle.

[ForeverGirl]

Hey, hey, whey hey, 

Yes, I've used Dannon yogurt whey before. It works fine. Usually the yogurt kind of sits in the clear whey like a gigantic curd and you can just pour off some of the clear whey without having to make cheese. Once you get a starter going (make a jar of something with the whey) you can just keep using your starter if you want...

As regards fermenting tomato products, the salsa was really good and still is... I have a couple of jars that are a few weeks old now. The fermented taste actually goes very nicely with tomato stuff. I think the natural tartness of the tomatoes is complimented by the fermentation. Tomatoes are actually a fruit, and the sugar in them probably really aids fermentation.

I was surprised at how many tomato recipes were in the Preserving Food without Canning or Freezing book... some included covering the tomatoes with oil. 

It is my understanding that dangerous rotting bacteria are best combated with healthy preserving bacteria - rather than the absence of any bacteria... i.e. antibiotics.

 For instance, I've read about wine makers "curing" their wine press by dumping the dregs of good old wine out all over everything. The wood, the tools, everything gets soaked with the live (but preserving) bacteria. This insures a better more "sure" brew.

I've also read about people curing their cellars by spraying them occasionally with apple cider vinegar with the mother. This kills mold and introduces a strong healthy bacteria.

For this very reason we take "probiotics" when we are ill... not bleach or antibiotics. Well, some folks take antibiotics, and you all know that this kills both the good and the "bad" bacteria... leaving the system more vulnerable for bad bacteria to be reinstated. The most effective way to maintain a healthy gut is to keep it highly populated with good bacteria.

Likewise, heat and pressure type canning will kill all bacteria in the food, leaving a bacteria free environment in the jar. But... once the jar is opened, or if it is poorly sealed, or not heated hot enough... yes, you see now... there is not enough healthy bacteria present to preserve the food, instead it is taken over by the type of bacteria whose job it is to break down and rot things... to return them to dust... to destroy them.

So, like with cheese, wine, vinegar, beer... the key is to learn how to introduce that "preserving bacteria" and nurture it to maturity so that it will keep your food for you.

Interestingly, most (maybe all) vegetables and fruits are naturally coated with a dust of this preserving bacteria. Grapes are most famous for having the "yeast" on their skin which is used to make grape wine. You need nothing but the unwashed grape itself to get a good brew going.

Tomatoes also have a natural "dust" on their skin. You can ferment them without any whey at all if you have a good, unwashed, organic, bunch of tomatoes. The surest way to avoid botulism is to culture a good bacteria.

I say all of this without much experience! However, the things that I have fermented have been consistently good, safe, edible products. I also can foods with heat and pressure. Despite my best efforts I still have a jar of something go bad even after it has been heated to high temperatures under controlled pressure.

I don't think fermenting is in anyway more dangerous than pressure canning. In fact, I would say it is much less dangerous.

That is my opinion, take it or can it. 
 
Beka

[AndysJess]

Hee-hee Beka

It all makes sense to me, and since I'm one who really, really detests canning, this seems so much easier...with the side benefit of having lots of "good-for-you" things added in.  I'm so excited to get started on this once we're settled in our home in WV.

[RunAmokFarm]

Thank you for the detailed responses!!

As to the good bacteria coating on the unwashed organic veggies...
 
1.  Would we need to have these be "homegrown" (or from the farmer's market), or can we buy the veggies from the organic section in the grocery store; does the grocery store wash them too much for the veggies to retain the good bacteria coating/dust?  (Obviously, nothing growing this time of year up north...   )

2.  Is it safe to buy these foods from the grocery store and not wash them - as in, could they be contaminated with fecal material or "organic" fertilizer that should be washed off?

If grocery store organics are ok, then I think I am going to try this sometime this week!?  Maybe some mixed veggies - the cauliflower and peppers sound promising...   
J

[Deb]

We used to live next to a sweet sweet older  lady that gave us the BEST sourkraut we ever had. I asked her for the recipe and it is almost identicle to the one Beka posted from the book. I thought she had left out about heating it after it got done working (as she called it) and then we moved and I never got to find out. So, you don't have to heat it afterwards!! I love what the older generation knew that we too can learn for today(tommorrow)!! I will be making this this week!

[amy3js]

Well we have had a bad flu all week, so I haven't got to the store and might not (depends on if it hits me next or not). So my fermenting plans are held off another week. 

[ForeverGirl]

update:

My cauliflower got mushy after a month.

The Habeneros were great, but too hot to eat plain... have to cook them with something else.

The Turnips are still the best fermented veggie so far, with Cabbage being a close runner up and radishes just behind the cabbage.

-Beka

[herbfever]

update:

My cauliflower got mushy after a month.

The Habeneros were great, but too hot to eat plain... have to cook them with something else.

The Turnips are still the best fermented veggie so far, with Cabbage being a close runner up and radishes just behind the cabbage.

-Beka

Thanks Beka! I want to try the cauliflower myself.  I love gardienera which includes cauliflower.
I will make sure to add a horseradish or grape leaf when I do.

Habenero are beyond my heat level but that is good to know!

[denim&lace]

Turnip nutrition facts: http://www.natural-environment.com/nutrition/vegetables/turnip-nutrition-facts.php

I wish I had a grape leaf to add to the veggies I have brewing...  3 days into it.  You don't suppose adding one now or even in a few days would make a difference, do ya?

[herbfever]

I would try it if you have them available to you.  The fresh grape leaves are what are used in case I forgot to mention that.

I am looking forward to turnips as well. Our csa usually has them abundantly. I don't think they are popular but we like them. I don't have room in the garden for them, unfortunately.

[denim&lace]

Well, I didn't get a grape leaf, but...
The saurkraut made from red and green cabbage turned out yummy... and pink.    Very pretty sitting in my fridge in a big jar. (and I'm not even fond of pink.)

The mixed veggies were a pretty plain mix.  Cauliflower, carrots, broccoli, and cabbage.  The broccoli has the unpleasant sulphery smell of broccoli, which caused my dh to respectfully decline.     But it all taste good to me.  I like the carrots and cauliflower a lot.

[amy3js]

Ok, so one thing or another keeps holding me off from trying this, and I want to get something started and just try! So I have a head of cabbage and slim pickins on the rest of veg right now, so I am going cabbage only for my first trek into this. And I still haven't got any whey, so I am just doing salt- I am thinking I will double what salt was suggested (I think I read to do that on another site). So I will cut up the cabbage, smash into a mason jar, add salt and cover with filtered water with about an inch over the cabbage. And i'm still not sure about the covering it, should I do the lose lid or cloth and rubber band?

Ok, I'm off the feed lunch to people and then I will be doing this...

[boysmama]

Cabbage is a good one! 

If you haven't done it yet, DON'T double the salt. It will be very hard to eat. Cabbage doesn't need whey. It is probably one of the most natural lacto ferments. It's almost designed specifically for the job.  Good rule of thumb is 3 tbsp salt  per 5 lbs of cabbage- a little more or less, but not double.

[denim&lace]

Saurkraut is my favorite lacto-fermented veggie so far.  But I've always liked saurkraut.  My grandma on Dad's side was german, and she knew a thing or two about cabbage. 

Cauliflower is pretty yummy, carrots are nice too.  I have to say that we probably will not be fermenting broccoli in this house again...    unless the circumstances demanded it.  We like our broccoli lightly steamed and lightly salted.   

[amy3js]

Ya, it's done! I just did a large spoonful of salt. I read beka's post that said she did 1 spoonful, so I just did a large spoonful and hopefully it's not too salty.  I boiled 2 large jars (old applesauce jars) and stuffed 1 head of cabbage in them, covered with water and left about an inch of head space. I'm glad for all the help on here from you gals (and gabe, lol) ! Hopefully we will be enjoying properly fermented cabbage soon. 

[amy3js]

So I took the lids off today to see what was going on (I'm so impatient  )  and some of the cabbage had floated above the water, so I stuffed it back down. Was that right/ok? I also noticed an..odor  is that normal at this stage?

[HappyWifey]

I'm really trying to get into adding cultured foods into our diet so I am excited about this discussion!

I have a few carrots on hand so I'm thinking about doing some, the one time I tried I followed NT's recipe and didn't care for it, the whole thing turned brown and yucky. Can I do thicker slices of carrots? NT's recipe called for it shredded.

I have made Kimchee before and it was SO yummy! Way better than what is found at the stores and restaurants.

My mom turned our garden cabbages into sauerkraut this past summer, there was one recipe that was extremely good, and was gone as soon as it was ready, but the rest are still sitting in the fridge. (and we love sauerkraut!) She also made fermented pickles and they are slimy we have quite a few jars sitting in the fridge uneaten.. :/

I want to try turnips, I have only had them once and that was cooked with butter salt and pepper, tasted just like cauliflower. Becca did you add any seasonings to yours?

I wonder if you could add water kefir grains to a dish your wanting to culture, maybe a fruit? and see how that does? That would be interesting to know!

I really want to know about preserving fruits, and keeping them sweet. I have read about how the natives here in AK would cover blueberries in a barrel with sugar. A layer of blueberries then a layer of sugar. The berries here need lots of sugar anyways as they are TART. I don't like the idea of lots of sugar, but honey is SO expensive.  Someone mentioned Becca doing blueberries and covering the top with a layer of honey?? How did this turn out?

We have a berry here called bearberry, it is a relative of uva ursi, and I really want to use it more but it does NOT taste good at all. I have read that cooking it improves the taste, but so far the only time we have used it is when we mistake it for blueberries and added to to our shakes. I wonder if it could be fermented and improved on?

I have recently have begun experimenting with natural sodas.... and I am HOOKED!!!  They are SO good! So far I have made ginger ale and my brother has made blueberry soda, which I didn't care for but I don't think he made it quite right....
I am really looking forward to getting the ingredients I need to make root beer, I LOVE Virgil's and I hope I can make some that tastes like that.

Becca you really need to start a blog so we can see all of your neat ideas and experiments in one place. 

[HappyWifey]

Oh I am so excited! My brother has Preserving Food without Freezing or Canning and I am reading it right now, already my questions about the blueberries and carrots have been answered..... I am SO wishing it was fall now....

I really want to try the mushrooms, DH and I really like the mushrooms we get at the store.

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