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[horsemama]

I figure I can ask this question on this forum, as y'all seem to be alternative thinkers here, and don't automatically freak out at doing things "differently" to the rest of the world........ (that's a complement, btw) 

My oldest child turns 18 this year. He is also our only son (followed by 5 girls). He was homeschooled from the start, we used MUS, LLATL and unit studies. When he was 12 we bought and moved to a farm.... a very run down farm - dh is Mr. Visionary Extraordinaire!!!  There was SOOOOO much work to do, that all homeschooling fell by the wayside, apart from Math & Language, which we plugged away with when we could.

Daniel is a talented practical kid....  dh bought him an old motorcycle.. Daniel fixed it, and went on to fix & sell several more. He learned to drive at 12. He has learned to fix just about anything mechanical (did I mention dh is a visionary type, who brings home all sorts of BARGAINS from the auctions??? ).  He has a great "can do" attitude.... he will have a go at anything, mostly successfully. At 17, he can build, weld, do woodwork, do simple wiring, plumbing, drive anything (tractors, heavies, earthmoving machinery), fix anything.....  most people do not believe he is only 17, he is usually mistaken for 20-something. Two of my husband's work aquaintences have asked Daniel to mind their businesses for them for a few days. He is responsible and loves the Lord.


Can you tell we are hugely proud of him?    BUT.... he has hardly had any formal schooling!! two years ago he registered for grade 10 with a correspondance school,  but due to not having enough hours in the day to study, two years later he has STILL not completed the courses. The other teens are working towards writing SATs, but Daniel is unenthusiastic. It feels like a waste of time to him.  I can understand, I guess... he wants to get on with making some money (did I mention that dh is a visionary / entrepeneur +++?)

Dh said that Daniel could take this year to decide what he wants to do, and gain some more skills. He worked 2 weeks in a mechanical workshop, and will spend some time with some church friends bettering his metalworking skills. Dh has a business buying, fixing & selling cars, and he is going to let Daniel repair one this year, and keep the profit.

It all sounds great, but I am nervous about him not having any formal qualifications... even a school leaving certificate. He doesn't even have a grade 10 at this point. I am afraid he is limiting his options for later...... if he decides to study further, etc.  I don't want him to be completely excluded from a tertiary education, or a profession that requires more *paperwork* 

I would never dream of interfering with the plans that dh and Daniel have made together, so I guess what I'm asking for is some sort of assurance that he will be okay in the big bad wide world without more formal schooling!!   I know there are many many success stories about people who have been successful without much schooling, but that is not the norm? .....mostly, no education means no future

[seekingtruth]

It sounds to me like you have raised a man!  And it sounds like he has gotten a better "education" than most boys who spend their days in a classroom and their nights on video games.  Can he read?  Can he add, subtract and handle money?  Then I wouldn't worry about him.

  If he decides to pursue something that requires knowledge that he doesn't have, then it sounds like he is determined and smart enough to gain the knowledge if it is necessary.  It sounds like your son knows how to learn and enjoys doing it (even if his learning hasn't involved a ton of "book learning").  There is a wealth of knowledge to be gained in life that just doesn't happen in a classroom.    It is not possible for us to know everything.  My goal with my children is to help them gain the tools and skills to learn what they need to know and a lifelong passion for learning.  It sounds like you have done that with your son.

And with an entrepreneurial spirit, it shouldn't really make much difference if he has a lot of formal education or not.  It sounds like he will end up running the business and those with the degrees will be working for him.  There is so much more to success than a diploma!  The world is in desperate need of real men that are not afraid of hard work and know how to think and problem solve.  It sounds like your son is such a man.

So I say relax and be proud of him.

[RunAmokFarm]

Some men are just "DOERS".     In my opinion, at almost 18 years old, forcing him to complete the schoolwork would be agony... 

I agree with SeekingTruth - when/if he needs a certain bit of knowledge, this young man WILL do what needs to be done.

I have several family members who, as adults, got their GEDs - just for the paperwork aspect.  BTW, they did not have up to the 10th grade completed either.  Guess practical,  hands-on knowledge can fill in a lot of educational "gaps" (which, honestly, when one has been DOING these things in everyday life, these are not really "gaps" at all!) 

What he knows, he will retain, because his education has been ingrained in his hands, his muscles... every fiber of his manly being!!   
J

[sohnnenstrahl]

"...no education means no future..."    If what you mean is school education, then I don't buy it.

What is education? Are schools the only sources of education?  
What is a future? Some gaurantee that someone stuck on papers will hire him?

It sounds like your son has been the privileged recipient of a first class education, and that it is continuing.

If he sees a need for college classes, or high school classes, he is free to enroll and do the work.  

Your husband seems confident and capable of guiding your son. I would like to put my arm around you and ask you to drop the worries and instead rejoice that your husband has not allowed the world to superimpose its requirements on his family, and that (IMO) he has trained up his child in the way HE should go. Your son is flourishing! He sounds perfectly smart enough to sit down and learn certain academics if he discovers that he needs them.

Whatever the "norm" is, be concerned instead with whatever the right is. Your husband is at the helm, and your son is an engaging, skillful, talented, serving, vibrant young man. My post, in case you haven't figured it out, is purposed to give you the assurance you seek.

In case you wonder what sort of a whack job would be spreading such anti-educational heresies, my master's degree is in "education" and my National Teacher's Exam score was in the 99th percentile. Bachelor's was double major, one of which was education. I've taught at a university, but mostly at an elementary school. Finalist in our county for teacher of the year. I've unlearned most of it, kept only what applies to us, and am very thankful that my husband leads us in a way that seeks God's intent for each child. The academic work is there, and can be accessed as needed. It is not our god.   So now you have a certified opinion from a degreed professional in favor of you not worrying about diplomas.

For more encouragement from degreed professionals, read John Taylor Gatto. He is a lot more degreed, awarded and even more professional, but how he improved the education of his students was by giving them passes OUT of class   to go learn real life.

Our son is almost ten. Don't know where you live, but we would consider it educational enrichment to fellowship with your family, and have our son glean from yours. He sounds like he'd make a knock-out teacher, among his other accomplishments.  

I just read some comments posted while I was writing this. Okay, some of this will be what they said, but maybe that will encourage you more.

[Gabriel Anast]

I hate to say this... because... it will dishearten a lot of good people, and I don't mean it to. But, IMO:

Formal education is a slave mold. It creates good worker bees. That is what it is made for.*

What your son is doing is the thing that makes great men. Its the thing that made Bill Gates and Robert Kiyosaki, Jack Welch and Richard Branson. He might not aspire to being who those men are... but know that whatever is in his heart and mind is the same seed.

This is why we use the Charlotte Mason method... or something like it... its not "better" than other curricula at producing better test scores... it might actually be worse, but it does teach the children (especially our "version") to observe. Always observe... and let their hearts, minds and creativity be the fire for the fuel.

Anyway... I would not worry a bit... just be careful to keep him out of anyone's hands that would limit him (a friend who thinks he would make a great manager... but not give him the reigns... XP... quit that job), and give him all the fuel you can.

--gabe

*To those that have formal educations or who have invested much in their children in that direction (and who value my opinion... heh), all is not lost... just teach them to doubt and re-consider everything, as in everything that they have been taught.

If you cannot figure out what that means or what to do next... try something very different... something that modernism hates... try to make an economics class / project based on the manorial system. Not the re-enactment version... the real thing. Talk about breaking out of the mold... that should help. You can even choose Japanese, East Indian, English, Continental or many others. The trick is to figure out how things actually worked... whether they were morally right or wrong and why... If you do this, don't believe the typical analysts... look instead for the true historians, the ones that just looked and recorded. Find old stories free of modern criticism and condensation of "outmoded economic systems."

[Gabriel Anast]

Uh, yeah... ditto all the above too! (especially the Gatto mention... look that guy up!)

[Sweet E]

Horsemama, you've gotten some great advice and encouragement already. I just wanted to add a "success" story to the mix, if I may.

My brother was in private school until high school. When my parents took him out to begin homeschooling, one of their biggest concerns was his future career... he was great at everything and absolutely excelled at math. Sam passed his GED after 12th grade, and then won a scholarship to college through his high scores on the SAT. Mom thought that he should head to college and become an engineer. He would be set for life! A steady job, good money, security... what more could one ask for??? 

The problem with her plan was that Sam didn't want to go to college.  He would rather be out building. He built (with some help, of course!) his first house at 18 or 19, from the ground up. He soon had a small crew of guys that worked for him, building garages and room additions. After a few years he became bored with construction, and moved on to cabinetry. He ended up in old town DC doing custom jobs in historic houses. We have furniture all over the house that he has made... beautiful, beautiful stuff.

After a few years he wanted another change and began his current business in partnership with a friend. My Dad sold our house and put up the capital.  They learned the business from the ground up... found other investors, hired engineers, worked long hours themselves. Sam learned AutoCAD in order to draft plans for the business. I can't count the times Sam has come home from a meeting and said that the white-haired executives couldn't believe that he was so young. "How did you learn all this?" they would ask. "You know more than people who have spent decades in the field. And you say you've never been to college?" A few have nodded and laughed, "Yeah, college makes great employees. You boys have done it the right, the way we did when we were young."

Sam’s friend, who has what Sam considers a brilliant business mind, received a very similar education as what you described for your son. In fact, it may have been less, because he had learning problems. Most of his learning was gained out “doing” things. Reading anything was misery until he got into business and wanted to read the business magazines. Now, I have seen him sit for hours and read and study articles.

So… I second what everyone else has shared. I wouldn’t worry about your son’s formal education at all. My Mom laughs at herself, and says, “And I worried that Sam wouldn’t amount to anything since he didn’t go to college!” It seems utterly ridiculous now. Your son sounds like a very creative and visionary man. Maybe he won’t keep the same job for 40 years or make a huge income, but what is money? He already has the one thing, the only thing (IMO), that he absolutely has to have to be a success in his “career” and really, life in general, which is: The desire, the interest, creativity, vision, JOY in living. 

And when (or if) Daniel comes to the place that his lack of formal education is hindering him, he can then choose to gain that understanding out of real interest and need. My brother would be the first to agree with this and encourage you to put aside your fears and glory in the gifts of your son.

Just the thoughts of a proud sister,
E

Sorry to write a book! 

[MomOf8]

    Do you have any more practical suggestions for moms who would love to move towards this?  I do like the living books/CM approach, but  the day is still very full.  I would love to move away from traditional schooling but don't know what to cut out of our day.  I guess I am asking, for a child around 10 or so, how do you balance school or should I say education with practical skills/work (not necessarily farm work)?

  Then, high school credits leave us bound to requirements--college bound or not, leaving less room for the types of things talked about here.  I would love to hear about a day without formal schooling.  Thank you!

[Sweet E]

One more thing... 

... just teach them to doubt and re-consider everything, as in everything that they have been taught.

IMO, and in observing my brother's business, his vision and "success" has not been in spite of his lack of more formal education, (i.e. college) it has been (on a certain level) because of that lack.

I think too, that we each have to find the balance of how this plays out in schooling. Every child is different. Every family is different. Some men aren't visionaries. 

Momof8, I hope you get some good advice! Maybe I will have some, in a decade or so... 

E

[ladyhen]

My oldest child turns 18 this year.
. . .
 He has a great "can do" attitude.... he will have a go at anything, mostly successfully. At 17, he can build, weld, do woodwork, do simple wiring, plumbing, drive anything (tractors, heavies, earthmoving machinery), fix anything.....  most people do not believe he is only 17, he is usually mistaken for 20-something. Two of my husband's work aquaintences have asked Daniel to mind their businesses for them for a few days. He is responsible and loves the Lord.
. . .

Can you tell we are hugely proud of him?    BUT.... he has hardly had any formal schooling!!   I know there are many many success stories about people who have been successful without much schooling, but that is not the norm? .....mostly, no education means no future

horsemama,

I'm seeing something different in your post that I would like to address.  This is your first child.  And he's taking flight.  You have every right to be 'hugely proud of him'!  His accomplishments and honors (acquaintances asking him to mind their businesses) exceed what most high school graduates can claim.   From what you have said of him, I feel confident that he will be just fine in life.

BUT . . . I also remember how it felt when our first son graduated.  We are home school pioneers and we were uncertain, at that time, if our son would be able to enroll in a college or if he would make it in the 'real world'.   It was, for me, a time full of doubt and worry and I felt so responsible for what I saw as an incomplete education for him.  (Yeah, he scored in the 97th percentile on the ACT  but that didn't seem to matter much to me) 

I think now, since having 2 more children  grow up and move away, that these feelings might just be part of a mother's heart trying to compensate for her loss of the day to day responsibility for a child.  Letting go of that is much harder than I thought it would be. 

Maybe I'm all wrong in that.  I don't know.  But I'm glad you bragged on your son here.  I love hearing about some of the wonderful people that have been raised in the homeschool movement.

[Gabriel Anast]

But I'm glad you bragged on your son here.  I love hearing about some of the wonderful people that have been raised in the homeschool movement.

Yeah... I was actively in the Bill Gothard ATI organization for about 4 years... and I remember thinking, "You know what, the management of this organization is a fiasco, the moral compass needs cleaning, and the ability to get any real work accomplished approaches zero... but the organization is a powerhouse because Bill has figured out how to get homeschool kids to work for him in droves."

These kids were amazing... smart, efficient, creative, genial... it was brilliant. It is scary what could have come of it... I don't know about other parts of the organization, but I think that the guys I went through ALERT with were about a hair's breadth away from founding something like Blackwater / Xe, and I know we could have. Thanks to God that we didn't.

Anyway, I agree, homeschool kids are amazing. I have always been amazed at them anyway.

--gabe

[MomOf8]

 Gabe,

    I was just wondering if you had any thoughts regarding my above post, if you have time?  Thank you.

[horsemama]

Phew! Wow, thanks y'all    I guess I am feeling a bit wobbly about it all because my parents were here this weekend, with the inevitable questions about the kids' "schooling". They are of the old "education is everything" mindset. They would love to see him get a degree and become a doctor/lawyer/engineer    To thier credit, they don't interfere, or even say anything, but I can sense thier worry and disapproval..........

Also, in South Africa where the majority of our population has been historically denied a good education, our govt REALLY pushes education now. Lots of media ads about the value of finishing school, tertiary ed, etc. So it's really swimming upstream to NOT have a perfectly bright kids not finish highschool!

To answer a few questions.....

where we live.......  We live in South Africa... sorry!!! 

What a day without formal schooling looks like....... LOTS of interruptions.  Wake up, discover there's no water. Daniel goes out on motorcycle to find water leak, returns, drives digger to site & starts digging up pipeline. Staff arrives, they all finish digging by hand, daniel measures pipe. Breakfast. shower off mud. Phones dh to tell him to get pipe. Settle down to schoolwork about half an hour, until the staff start needing him.... The hoes need sharpening.... the truck won't start... a tractor has a flat tyre..... some cows are missing and must be found (maybe they've been stolen.... which means calling the police, making statements)....  sometime durirng the day dh will bring home the new pipe which must then be fitted.... this takes 4 or 5 hours, then the water system must be "burped"  and the pump at the dam turned on & the reservoir re-filled and all the pipeline taps opened in the correct order....  after this he might go for a swim in the dam, or a paddle with the canpoe, or in winter a wild ride on his monster motorcycle .... the supper, some time spent hanging out with family & friends, and collapse into bed. Oh... during the night the electric fence alarm might go off (is someone stealing cows again???) or there might be poachers on the farm..... or he might need to stay up late to try shoot the bush pigs that are eating the maize or the duiker that are eating the beans.....

Total: about 30 minutes of academics! poor kid! This is an average day.

This post and your responses have made me feel a lot better about several things..... living here is HARD. It sounds romantic to live out here on a beautiful farm, but it is hard, hard hard! You might think you'd like your son to have this kind of "education" to make a man out of him.... but the reality is... hard   Daniel hasn't always had the best attitude about the hardship, but last year he had 3 experiences which changed him - he had a serious offroad bike accident which required knee reconstruction surgery, he rolled the pickup (totalled it) and walked out unhurt (miracle if you saw the truck!), and was knocked off his motorcycle by a car in town.. again unhurt.  Since then, he's been a different kid.... we joke that if he starts giving us uphill again, we'll arrange another serious accident to sort him out 

Regarding letting him go......  yes, I have mixed feelings! He is my only son! But actually, he started pulling away from me at around 8 yrs old, and when we moved out here, I kindof "handed him over" to his dad, as there was conflict brewing between us. In retrospect, it was a good move.  We have a good relationship.... and Daniel had a good relationship with his dad too, even though he is really TOUGH on him... go figure

As for continuing education later.... I forgot to mention, he is also thinking about starting a civils/earthmoving business with a Belgian friend who is 25 and a degreed civil engineer. The freind would do the surveying, and Daniel would maintain & operate the machinery. Perhaps he should take a business course...?

anyhow, thanks for the encouragement 

[smfmommy]

Perhaps he should take a business course...?

I don't have experience with teenagers yet but did want to comment on this.  My hubby was trying to get a degree in business and failed many of the classes (for various reasons) but still ended up being a store manager at one point in his career.  So I am not sure he would learn much by taking a course.  If he feels there is information he could gain from a course I would suggest hitting the library or a major bookstore or a college bookstore and getting whatever looks appropriate there.  I don't know if there are any lecture series out there on business that he could listen to while doing things around the farm, but that might be an idea if you can find them.  The Teaching Company has many lecture series that you can get in audio format - maybe he could get some of his "education" done in this way if he is interested.

He sounds like a great young man! 

 

[BaptistLady]

The only thing that I would still focus on "teaching" him (if he doesn't already know!), is how to write. I don't mean how to write his name, obviously, but how to write well. Anyone in this world, in my opinion, will need to be able to write coherently at some point in their life. If he someday wants to work at a job outside of your community, he will need to be able to form a complete sentence well.

I don't say this to bash your son. You should see some of the writing I have encountered in my years in the public schools. If you cannot fill out an application or create a resume, then you do not have the necessary writing skills for life. This does not mean that he will ever fill out an application or create a resume, but it is important to be able to do it if necessary.

Other than that, it sounds like he has quite a bit of know-how and is well prepared for life

[Gabriel Anast]

I hope he learned how to write before the tenth grade... ;P

--gabe

PS: we are still waiting for you to finish your homework.

[Deb]

It sounds to me like you have not only trained up and raised a man, but a FINE  young man!  We have sooo many young" boys" around here that are 18 (or even 21), but act like 12 and don't have any desire to change! They want to hang out with friends or run somewhere all the time-----play mentality. And they think mom and dad OWE them a full ride college education -which just means 4 more years to socialize and play-on someone elses dollar! Then they graduate and" can't" find a job, so they stay with mom and dad. Or they get a job and just can't afford life so they move into the basement---so they can use what money they make to play, socialize with friends, have fun, while mom and dad are still paying for life's expenses for them .UGH!!.
 I actually PRAY that my girls find men like you  have raised!!! With the work ethic he appears to have , there is no way to go but UP. If he finds he needs some formal training , he'll go after it with the same gumption he has for other work. You said work is HARD there, I have found that HARD work usually instills character better than anything else. I'm proud of him without even  knowing him!
 My hubby says that if ours want to go to  college, we will try to help them but they need to do that on their own, because it is something they truly want. His views are because he went to college after we were married and so had a little different perspective on life than the 18 year old freshmen there. He saw them having their parties and spending mom and dad's hard earned cash without even a care as to how many hours it took them to earn it. Our house rule is : somewhere between 18 and 21 they all need to become full adults---that is out on their own---otherwise we feel they are crippled for life. No failure to launch here! I know, Iknow we're terrible parents throwing our babies out into a hard cruel world!!!LOL
.( Did I mention one of my daughters is 18---hint, hint LOL!!!!)

[horsemama]

Actually, he writes pretty well    Llatl has been great at teaching them to write, and he is a natural speller. At one point I suggested he consider some sort of “writing” as a career... journalism perhaps.... but he didn’t think that would float his boat.....

One thing he needs to learn is financial planning!! He seems to spend everything he owns on entering motorcycle races or fixing his bike,  and today he said he wants to go get his hair chemically straightened....    For such a hardworking kid, he has absolutely NO money to his name!!  I almost feel as if I HAVE to say something negative about him, to bring some perspective / balance to this thread!!)

Am going to go do my "homework" now......

[Gabriel Anast]

Heh, the homework was not for you... it was for "BaptistLady" but she didn't want to do it... so... huh. Oh well.

--gabe

[horsemama]

ah, duh!  And there I went and read all through that thread and replied to it......

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