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[MomOf8]

I need some input about dc being disrespectful/talking back.  For example, I said something the other day trying to make my dd laugh and she said--"that's not funny".   Now to her, maybe it was not funny, but I sensed an attitude. I could not imagine a younger child doing that.  This is just an example, is this disrespect anyway?  I know many parents go through this with preteens and up, but  why do they do that when they get older?  I did go through this with one older dc, who has since stopped.  The dc would say--"but I don't know when I am talking back"  Any thoughts?  Thank you!

[SC lady]

  Well . . . you could pack a squirt gun & help dc learn discernment by offering a well-aimed squirt when the attitude is off. If done in fun & good humor, it will re-enforce the lesson that he/she ought to think before speaking.

However, if it isn't done objectively/consistently, then you could only be generating ill will along the lines of creating an atmosphere of --
'Look out. Don't talk to mom today. She's in a bad mood and just squirts everyone for no reason.'

So, if you're looking for a tool that says:
That's what I'm talking about -- that tone, those words, that sassy attitude won't be tolerated
Something that helps your kids take note and can be delivered in fun, offers immediate feedback, and requires very few words, then a squirt gun might help.

[Free Woman]

I have been planning to ask a similar question.  My dd,9,  has an attitude, too.  Only I know I'm the one who caused it.  I did a poor job of raising my kids and in the last year or so have been making a lot of changes.  She is second born and sometimes seems displaced by her older sister who tends to take charge and leave everyone in the dust.  I have seen a dramatic increase in her love toward me since I have been trying to tie more strings with her.  She gets along well with dh.  Part of it is a personality conflict.  Outgoing daughter and I get along better and quiet dd gets along with command man dad.  She has a habit of criticizing (siblings accomplishments, parents decision) and when she gets corrected she either gets a blank stare or answers and complies really quickly which seems good but she does it with an attitude that says "I'm not going to even give you the satisfaction of an argument" but inside she's mad and her attitude and tone stinks.

I have other problems with other dc but one thing at a time.  I feel like that illustration Michael Pearl gives about the weed growing up along side the green pepper plant.  I feel like if try to hard to get the weeds out, the plant is going to get unrooted.  I'm sure some of you have gone through this.  Please help us.

[Free Woman]

By the way, the squirt gun idea wouldn't work, I think she would get mad, since the attitude is more deeply rooted.

[SC lady]

By the way, the squirt gun idea wouldn't work, I think she would get mad, since the attitude is more deeply rooted.

Yeah . . . I think you're 'on target'  there.
Sounds as if you are also correct about tying strings.
Your description of her seems like she feels like an outsider 
Likely, you'll need to invest some time and creativity to re-tie those strings. . . . 

[Free Woman]

Can I expect the same obedience as a younger child?  And can I go about achieving it the same way?  How do I go about getting them to obey me?  Sometimes I feel like I'm living with roommates instead of daughters.

[denim&lace]

It sounds like you've lost your reins. 

Most horses require that the rider use reins to steer them in the right direction...  The reins are a means of control.  For a horse that is behaving properly, they offer gentle guidance and direction.  For a horse that is running wild, the reins provide a means of discomfort, that brings the will of the horse into subjection of the rider.

Most people will never be able to ride their horse without reins.  A horse that's been allowed to do what it wants will buck when the rider suddenly decides to pick up the reins and use them.  A smart rider will not jump on the horses back and grab those reins and expect immediate obedience.  Instead they will do some training from the ground to get the horse acquainted with the idea of submitting to the rein.  Ground training is important.  It's crucial.  Without it, you can expect to be dusting off your britches a LOT.  Simply because the horse doesn't understand your expectations. 

When you begin ground training with reins, you start by standing right by the horses head.  You hold the rein on the side closest to you and you give it a little tug keeping the tension, but not pulling or jerking on the horses head.  As soon as the horse bends his head toward you,  you release the tension on the rein, and praise the pony.  Good pony.  Most horses that are trained to lead at all will figure this out in a hurry.  Once they can accomplish this consistently in both directions you are ready to back off of their head and begin driving them.  You have successfully shown them your expectations, but you aren't ready to climb up in the saddle yet. 

The first step in training is setting reasonable expectations and making sure that those are fully understood.  You can't know that they understand the expectations unless you are right there by their head providing the instruction they need to accomplish the task.

If you skip this part of training, or you rush through it in order to get in the saddle, your horse will become frustrated because he don't understand what is expected of him.  He will get sullen and cranky.  He will become obstinate and mean.  When you jump on his back and pull on that bridle he's gonna pull his head in the opposite direction and will likely toss you in the dirt... 

This is the 'tying strings' part of training.  You've built a relationship with you as the leader and the horse as the follower.  You've set low expectations and rewarded the horse for accomplishing the task.  You made sure you were understood.  You've become consistent. 

The next step in training a horse is driving.  It involves moving away from the horses head a bit and raising your expectations.  I've gotta run right now, but I'll try to post more on this later.      

 

[MomOf8]

Great post, thank you!

[Free Woman]

This sounds like exactly what I need.  PLEASE tell me more.  I am trying too much to force them or shame them into obedience with my words.  I know there is a better way but I'm not sure how and I'm afraid to do something that will push them away.  I am open and willing to do anything.  The problems I am having with my kids are the number 1 thing that is needing to be changed right now for our family to run smoother.  I have gotten a basic handle on other problems already such as my salvation/spiritual life, keeping the house in basic order, self-discipline and honoring my husband.  Granted, I still have a long way to go, but in these areas I can see the goal and what I need to do to achieve it.  In child training, I thought I had it all figured out (in my head) since I had read everything Michael Pearl (and others) wrote but putting it into practice is totally different.  So please tell me more about this analogy and how it applies to real life.

Thank You

[denim&lace]

Ground training for a child.   

When my husband and I decided to pick up the reins in our child training, we wanted to be able to train all 3 of them at once.  We had waited longer than we should have to start training them, and we knew we needed to start somewhere.  We observed our lives and talked it over and decided that the first thing we needed from our children was for them to be able to be quiet when it was necessary.  We wanted them to be able to quietly wait for us to acknowledge them before they began speaking, or to be able to sit through church without them whispering or making other noise. 

We started with quiet training.  Every day at a set time I would call the children to the sofa.  I explained to them that we were going to sit quietly for 5 minutes.  If anybody made a noise I would reset the timer.  If they laid over or had a bad attitude I would reset the timer.  If they kicked the sofa or tapped their feet on the floor, or made a noise with their mouth, whether it be talking or not, then I would reset the timer.  Once they knew the rules I had them sit and get comfortable, I would set the timer, and as I started the timer I said, "Be quiet now."

The first day I reset the timer 6 times.  By the time we got our 5 minutes in, we had been on the sofa for over 30 minutes.  Each time I reset the timer I explained why...  "We are resetting the timer because Hobo sighed."  "Now we are resetting the timer because Pete kicked his foot against the sofa."  "Oh man, we only had 30 seconds left, but I'm resetting the timer because Spud laid his head over on my shoulder." 

The last time I reset the timer that day, one of the kids sneezed and the other two both said, "PETE!!!"     I explained to them that I would not have reset the timer because of Pete sneezing, because he couldn't keep from sneezing and he did at least try to stiffle it and covered his mouth.  But since they both lost their self control, and they fussed at him for it, then we would be resetting the timer one more time.  They were the quietest and stillest kids I'd ever witnessed for the following 5 minutes.   

The next day we only reset the timer once.
 
The next day we did it on the first try.  I told them all what a great job they had done and we all went and baked cookies together and had them after dinner.  I told Daddy as we were having dessert how well WE had done and that the cookies were OUR reward for a job well done.

The next day I explained to them that not many things only take 5 minutes, so we were going to set the timer for 10 minutes and see how well we did.  And they did well.

We worked our way up to 45 minutes after that, 5 minutes at a time.  Occasionally we had to reset the timer... and I made sure that I was consistent to reset it when they broke one of the rules.  If they completed the task successfully on the first run (we didn't have to reset the timer) I would stand up and say something along the lines of, "Wow, I've been quiet so well, I think I would like to play chase! Tag your it!" and we would go outside and play together, or I might decide that I wanted a lollipop, or a glass of lemonade or a trip to the park.   

We did not attend church during the 3 weeks that I focused on this.  When we did decide to go I told them on the way to church that I expected them to be quiet during the sermon just like we had been practicing at home.  They did, and Daddy took us out to ice-cream because he was so proud of us. 

That was how we trained our children to 'give us their heads' in the area of being quiet...  We still hadn't made it to driving them.  They could not yet be trusted to be quiet immediately on command in any given situation.  We had not backed up off of their heads and taught them to neck rein yet, but we were headed in the right direction.

So again, we established our expectations, we made sure they understood the the expectations.  We demonstrated to them what we wanted and we worked on it with them until they could complete the task.  We enjoyed it.  I kept it light and I laughed each time I had to reset the timer.  It was a game, and I was the coach and the referee.  They knew that they would be there playing the game until they were successful.  I had to set my expectations l-o-w to begin with, so they could be successful.  As soon as they had a successful run at the task they were rewarded. The reward was not of higher value than the task accomplished.

I hope to write more tomorrow on training a horse to drive...         
 

[Free Woman]

should I expect my 2 and 3 year old to be able to do this?  Staying home from church would be impossible for me but maybe I should use the church nursery for my little ones for now.  The older ones do well at sitting in church for the most part.

Thank you, this makes sense.  Can't wait to hear more.

[horsemama]

denim&lace, I LOVE your analogy   I totally agree. 

have you ever watched a really top-class dressage test (or reining class)??  You can't even *see* the aids. Just total harmony and joy... the horse knows exactly what is expected and the rider needs give only the slightest shift in weight or leg/rein pressure.  I often think that this is what I am aiming for with my children too.....  phew, but it takes a lot of training to get there 

[denim&lace]

horsemama - I remember reading an article by Michael Pearl where he described how his children would all just get up and file out of the room with just a glance from him when a visit with people turned into a counseling session. 

That reminded me of a horse I rode once.  I remember the owner of the horse telling me that I might need to hold the saddle horn when I turned him because he turned so hard and so fast that he might lose me.  I (being all of 14 and knowing everything about riding horses  ) replied, "Yes, sir." and headed off into the arena.  I walked the arena a circle or two and then took him up to a gallop.  He had a sweet smooth short lope, like a rocking horse...  and then I decided to turn and head the other direction.  I had not even picked up the reins yet, I just shifted my weight in the stirrups and that horse turned under me so hard and so fast it literally, physically hurt!  I don't know how I managed to stay on his back.  My Daddy had drummed into my brain, "NO SADDLE HORN" so much I didn't grab the horn but I tell ya, I had a new respect for the horse I was riding, but especially for the man who trained him! 

I've never been to a top class dressage test... but I have been to top class cutting, and team penning competitions.  Those animals and the people who train them are AMAZING!

Anyway, when I read that article I realized that children could be trained to respond to just the slightest shift in weight too.  Most never are.  Most of them are considered really well trained if they have a good neck rein and a smooth stop...  but I know that the kids are capable of more, if the trainers have an understanding of what is possible and will work toward that goal.  You should be able to drop the reins altogether and have your children know what is needed of them with just the shift of your weight...  but like you said, that takes a LOT of training.   

And you gotta start with the reins. 

[denim&lace]

should I expect my 2 and 3 year old to be able to do this?  Staying home from church would be impossible for me but maybe I should use the church nursery for my little ones for now.  The older ones do well at sitting in church for the most part.

Thank you, this makes sense.  Can't wait to hear more.

What do you think would be a reasonable expectation of your children?  That's where I'd start.  My kids were 5,6, and9 when I started this.  So working up to 45 minutes wasn't unreasonable.  With our 2 yo we can expect her to be quiet (not talk) for around 20-30 minutes... but more than that is stretching reason a bit.  Also, we don't expect her to sit silently without touching things or moving.  We give her a book with just pictures to look at, pencil and paper to write with, or another quiet toy to engage her mind while we sit quietly.  In a church service we have her stay in the sanctuary with us and when we get to the point that we as parents know we are pushing reason, one of us takes her out of the sanctuary or to the back of the sanctuary where she can walk around and move a bit more...  I know this wouldn't be readily accepted at all churches, but our pastor is a fine old fella that raised 3 little ones himself.  He wants the kids in the service and he keeps his sermons fairly short 20-45 minutes so we are comfortable with that.  Sometimes we just take her to the fellowship hall or if it were summer we'd take her out to the church lawn and let her walk around. 

We decided that once they are weaned, we would not take them to the nursery.  The nursery is full of toys and other children to play with and so they learn that if they aren't quiet enough in service they can go have play time in the nursery...  we didn't want to reinforce their bad behaviour with a reward, so we don't use it for those reasons, but I know other people with delightful children who let them go to nursery till they were aged out of it.     You just have to decide what is reasonable within your family and for your children. 

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