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[mammame]

Practice at home is a great way to learn! You can make a very simple marshmallow fondant out of marshmallows and confectioner's sugar (and shortening to put on your hands and the counter). With cookie cutters or even just a sharp knife you can create all kinds of cool things! Fondant is just like playdough and while I sometimes get frustrated (like with the meerkat cake I made this weekend... meerkats aren't easy! lol), it's still more fun in the long run than a full time office job!

[mammame]

Oh! And I tried to send you an email but it bounced back to me as undeliverable

[ForeverGirl]

Hi ladies,

It is not my intention to rebuke anyone on this thread or sound contentious... However, I feel it is important for me to make a statement here about what we believe the Scripture teaches regarding women working for a man who is not her husband.

Ladyhen mentioned this:

Due to a couple of factors, my ambitious Man has only been able to find part-time work the past few years.  He came home last year with a job offer for me that has 'fit' our family and beliefs quite well.  I do home care for a couple of hours in the afternoon for an elderly lady with Alzheimers.   Doesn't put me under another man's authority and I am able to bring children along, if needed. 

This is the point, IMO... A woman is intended to be an illustration of the Bride of Christ... subject to Him and Him only. She does not serve other masters, she does not look to other gods for her needs, and she is found always in His house, doing His work. It is this "picture", of a woman under the headship of a man, and a man caring for a woman, that communicates to the world what God is like. Ladyhen's husband found a way for her to help him without putting her under another man's headship.

If my husband told me to go get a job, I would go get one.  My command from God is to obey my husband. 

I would not cease to be a keeper at home, however.  I would work and still fulfill my duties at home.  Certainly that would not blaspheme the word of God but honor it.

I personally believe this point of view is contradictory to Scripture. To be accurate, you must look at the text:

Tts 2:5      [To be] discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

The question may be "what is a keeper at home"? Is it someone who keeps the house neat or someone who stays at home or what?  The answer can be found by looking at other "keepers" in Scripture. Here is an example:

Sgs 5:7      The watchmen that went about the city found me, they smote me, they wounded me; the keepers of the walls took away my veil from me.

Here, the keepers were those men who had charge of the walls. They stood on them and watched for enemies. They warned those inside the city of danger. Because those keepers were on the wall, the people inside the city were safe and at peace.

The word "keeper" is also used repeatedly in description of "keepers of the gates". These are men who stayed at the gates, opening and closing them for those who came in and out of the city. They denied access to enemies, and knew about all that came in and out.

In light of the broader context of "keeper" in Scriptures, I believe that a "keeper at home" is a woman that keeps her husband's "city" like the keepers of the walls and the gates. She does not leave the wall vulnerable. She may go to and from it (albeit, rarely) while doing her job as wall-keeper, but she does not become keeper of the city bank while being on duty at the wall.  All her business is done within the home. All of her concerns are centered around what happens in the home.

God's command is to be "keepers at home." As I understand this passage, to disobey this command results thus:
Tts 2:5      [To be] discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

The word of God is blasphemed if we disobey these simple commands to be "obedient to our own husbands" (IMO, not another man) and be keepers at home (IMO, not store keepers.) 

Interestingly the word "blasphemed" is also used quite a lot in the OT. Read those usages for broader context. God accuses Israel of blaspheming him by going to other gods... by (as I see it)  putting themselves under different headship.

Isa 65:7      Your iniquities, and the iniquities of your fathers together, saith the LORD, which have burned incense upon the mountains, and blasphemed me upon the hills: therefore will I measure their former work into their bosom.

This is a very important issue. I don't think that it is simply a matter of preference. I believe it is crucial that women understand the gravity of remaining under their appropriate headship.

You may say "but we're supposed to obey our husbands!"

May I ask in light of all Scripture... what is a husband? I cannot find a place in Scripture where a man can send his wife out to work for another man without this constituting "putting away."

 If he told you to do other things that God plainly forbids, would you insist on obeying your husband? "He told me to commit adultery! He insisted that I steal food for him! He believes in human sacrifice, and said that I am his priestess... what was I supposed to do... I have to obey my husband!"

I say all this in the context of my first post, giving ideas about earning an income from the home... and the passage from Proverbs 31 about the virtuous woman making a good income while remaining a keeper at home.

I know this post is a big pill to swallow, but I honestly believe this issue is too important to let slide. I must make a stand here because I am zealous for the word of God, that it be not blasphemed.

Rebekah

PS: I know a lot of you ladies quite personally... and I know a lot of you work outside of the home. I'm not calling down hellfire and damnation on you, or accusing you of willfully going out to blaspheme the word of God. I'm just asking you to rethink your path... talk to your husband humbly and with understanding. Ask God to make a way for you to obey Him and be at peace with your man. If this is as important to Him as I believe it is, then He will hear that prayer and give you grace to obey Him.

[sohnnenstrahl]

Hey, Beka, thank you! Can I swipe that and print it so we can go read it on the couch? Beautiful. Some might be taken aback, but some will surely be relieved.

[SC lady]

Titus 2:5
To be discreet, chaste,
keepers AT home,
good, obedient to their own husbands,
that the word of God be not blasphemed.

What you believe on the topic will be colored by what you believe about Scripture and its reliability, IMO.

I'm glad Beka posted the study on the word 'keeper' in Scripture. It really does convey a lot of responsibility. (As in, we aren't just space-taker-uppers at home  )

I once studied this passage and came to focus on the word "AT." As I understand language, the two-letter preposition "AT" in this passage indicates a place.

The phrase doesn't say a wife is a keeper OF home (which could have encompassed many meanings) but a keeper AT home. 'At' is a pretty specific word. It points to a place, a location. For me, that settled the matter about the issue of 'where.' Looking over the above study on 'keeper' (and looking up the passages on my own) helps me re-focus on HOW I am to be in the place God has commanded.

. . . And the last phrase "that the word of God be not blasphemed" makes me tremble . . .

[RunAmokFarm]

(modified because something went haywire and I posted before I was actually done typing...  LOL)   

Ok, I have a really technical question...     I agree the "AT" home is crucial - so we felt very blessed when a pet supplement company (one I was very familiar with) called and asked if I would work for them, from HOME, doing nutritional consultations for some of their clients. 

At the moment, the pay is far more than I could make "outside" the home, and I am able to physically be home with our children, and have time to do my household chores, schooling, etc... well, most of the time anyway - still a balancing act on some days, because I am not feeling great lately.

That said, we consider this near "perfect", because I am home, under my husband's blessing and headship... 

If my husband needs me to do something, or go somewhere, to a large degree, I set my own schedule, and can be very flexible --- as flexible as if I were working with my "own" clients.  (As with every business, there are still obligations that have to be met, so I can't just up and leave on a moment's notice unless there is an emergency... but quite flexible.) 

Now... the person who hired me is the CEO of this large company in another state... and this person is... a MAN.     I have brief contact with him throughout the week (typically less than 10 minutes, phone/email included), and this is not usually with him giving me "direction", more typically, I am giving him an update on a client case, or something of that nature.

So...  Technically, while I have an obligation to this company, I am considered something in the realm of an "independent" consultant... however, this man DOES have the ability to direct my endeavors to some extent... and to "fire" me, if I do not perform to the company's satisfaction.

THE TECHNICAL QUESTION IS:
In this case, am I still considered as living/working under my husband's headship, or am I working under another man's headship?
J

[Mrs. B]

Thanks for the insight on these issues.
I am one of the work outside the home wives here, and I appreciate the input and encouragement, as well as food for thought.

I guess my questions also stem from an area similar to RunAmok's.

I can see, and get the word study of "keepers at home", but I'm wondering if there isn't more to it.
I didn't grow up with a father, and was never under any man at any point in my life until I was married at the age of 24.  My husband also grew up without a male figure and is more encouraging me to do whatever I want to do. So even then, I didn't really feel under his authority for a long time, and after alot of growth as a Christian.
 I honestly have a hard time understanding the concept on this level, as it really is almost foreign to me.

My questions are mainly about working from home.   If you aren't working for your husband, is it Biblically wrong?  Is it really about the focus, or attitude of the heart, or is it just the actual action of having a job?

I guess I've always seen it as better for me to work away from home for a few hours and make really good money, than to stay at home and work more hours and take more time from my family, or just be focused elsewhere for less money.  Now when I go to work, I'm there for a bit, and then come home without any thoughts of it.


I guess I see many women who work from home who spend more time spinning their wheels and not accomplishing alot overall when it comes down to the bottom, financial line.  Even if there are running their own business of handcrafts, etc. they still need to manufacture, package, market and deliver.
Or if they work at a computer job at home, they also require time alone where they can't be totally tuned into their family's needs.

They may or may not have outside bosses, but they are still not necessarily "keeping watch" over their homes even though they may be at home.

I don't wish to come across as argumentative or as splitting hairs, but I am curious how you would translate this from a Biblical point of view.

I guess I just see alot of women who see themselves as stay at home, but they have so many side projects and hobbies that they choose to do that they are not necessarily keeping though they are at home, but then I also consider myself a keeper though I may be at home 8-12 hours less a week than others.
I guess, in my opinion, I'd like to think that I'm working for my husband 'smarter' and not necessarily harder, as I can bring home a good deal of money in a few hours.

[Mrs. B]

Also... another question came to mind.... This is all based on Titus 2 where older women are told to encourage the younger.  If I'm no longer one of the 'youngers' does it change my purpose to the point that I do not need to be a keeper at  home any longer?

[ForeverGirl]

Hi Ladies,

Thank you for the replies and questions. Gabe and I just talked through all of it and recorded our conversation as an audio... he's working on it and will load it soon.

Thank you for the comments about the word "at", SC! And yes, I was also impressed with the seriousness of being a "keeper"... not just a dweller/sitter/etc... 

Even though we covered the questions in the audio, I'd like to address them here too for the sake of readers.

The questions were great... really thought provoking.

Now... the person who hired me is the CEO of this large company in another state... and this person is... a MAN.   Grin  I have brief contact with him throughout the week (typically less than 10 minutes, phone/email included), and this is not usually  with him giving me "direction", more typically, I am giving him an update on a client case, or something of that nature.

So...  Technically, while I have an obligation to this company, I am considered something in the realm of an "independent" consultant... however, this man DOES have the ability to direct my endeavors to some extent... and to "fire" me, if I do not perform to the company's satisfaction.

THE TECHNICAL QUESTION IS:
In this case, am I still considered as living/working under my husband's headship, or am I working under another man's headship?

My questions are mainly about working from home.   If you aren't working for your husband, is it Biblically wrong?  Is it really about the focus, or attitude of the heart, or is it just the actual action of having a job?

I guess I've always seen it as better for me to work away from home for a few hours and make really good money, than to stay at home and work more hours and take more time from my family, or just be focused elsewhere for less money.

Both of these questions come from ladies who I know better than most on the board. I know that both of you intend to do your husband "good and not evil, all the days of his life." I know that your motive is to bless your man.

I don't know the specifics of your job, Mrs B... so my answer will be rather general.

The virtuous woman in Proverbs 31 obviously had some business interactions that probably included selling and buying to/from men.

Pro 31:18           She perceiveth that her merchandise [is] good: her candle goeth not out by night.

Pro 31:24           She maketh fine linen, and selleth [it]; and delivereth girdles unto the merchant.

I think the important thing is perspective. This woman did not see herself as working for the merchant... but rather that the merchant was buying from her. If he didn't like her wares, he could walk away. If she didn't want to sell to him, she could go elsewhere or sell something else. That merchant did not provide for her or have any authority to dictate what she did with her time and resources.

Runamok, you may see yourself as an employee... or you may see yourself as a virtuous woman whose merchandise is good, and some merchant wants to buy from you regularly. He has a deal with you that you deliver so much merchandise each week... however, he is not your boss. He may stop wanting your merchandise for one reason or another (this may be called "firing" you) but you still have that same skill and merchandise to offer another merchant if God and your husband so direct. God may open another venue for you too. Your perspective that you are your husband's helper exclusively will probably become evident in your business relationship when some day your so-called "boss" asks you to do something that you can't do and still be a keeper at home.

"I need you to fly to New York and do seminar..."
"Oh, well... I can't do that, I need to be at home with the kids."

or

"Write me 3 1000 word articles by Monday."
"I can do 2, but not 3. I can recommend someone that could do the third one for you."
"Oh. Okay. Who?"

Can you see ... you are now a vendor... not an employee. You aren't subject to this man or the "job"... It's just one of the virtuous activities in your life... but it doesn't rule you. You can walk away and do something else. The world (the company/boss) looking on knows you as a woman who is a keeper at home... who cannot be bought or threatened with loss. You serve a God who provides for you, and you are working for HIM... not a guy in a suit.

Also... another question came to mind.... This is all based on Titus 2 where older women are told to encourage the younger.  If I'm no longer one of the 'youngers' does it change my purpose to the point that I do not need to be a keeper at  home any longer?

If I understand this question correctly, you are asking if being "older" exempts you from the command to be a keeper at home. If so, then being discreet, chaste, obedient, and good would also "expire" for those that are older. I think the older women teach by example as well.

I'm looking forward to being older so I can teach all the things I've learned to my granddaughters and their friends. I learned so much from an older Amish lady when I was a teenager. She was a widow and didn't have any really little kids anymore. She taught me right along with her daughters how to do things like make cheese, can foods, plant gardens, milk cows... I am still reaping the benefits of the things she taught me. I plan to pass on the favor to as many little girls as I can. I am already doing this with some of my children's friends. This is teaching the practical skills of being a "keeper at home."

Okay, gotta go now. Hope this all makes sense.

Beka

PS: the audio covers a lot more and even includes baby hiccups. 

[Mrs. B]

Thanks to both of you, Gabe and Beka.  I value your input and look forward to the audio.

I'm actually a nurse (RN) and the funny thing is that I've always considered myself a 'free agent' of sorts.  I'm on the payroll, but I contract out on an individual setting week to week depending upon our needs.  I've been doing this for a while, and my experience has granted me this option.  Plus with nursing shortages, most hospitals are able and willing to negotiate for an experienced nurse, especially in specialty areas.
I don't work for benefits, just cash.

In my line of work there are alot of women, and it has always broken my heart to see young mothers leave their children. But I've always felt somewhat hypocritical as I am also working, but not necessarily having to do so in the same capacity that they are doing.  I'm not one to judge, but in the world where I live, it seems to be the norm for women to give birth, return to work 8 weeks later.  Often this isn't just a temporary thing, but because they want a break(?), a bigger house, nicer car, and longer vacations.
When my babies were small, I was home with them.  When my husband was unemployed, I worked full-time, but it consisted of 3 days a week, and I still managed our home and schooled the kids.
My kids are 12 and 7 and they still need and want me home(and even if they didn't, I'd still be there), but 1 day a week allows my dd (who is 12) to stretch her wings a bit and practice taking care of the house and dad for a few hours.

I'm not looking to justify what, or how, we choose to live, but just explain it.
I appreciate your thoughts and answers, and look further to  more discussion on this....

[ForeverGirl]

Okay, Gabe has the audio up now. Here is a link to it:

What is a Keeper at Home?

Yeah, Mrs B, we know how much money medical contractor pay can be... Gabe was a paramedic for 7  years, sometimes as a contractor for a med-flight company. That was always really good pay. I still don't know what to say about your specific situation. But, listen to the audio, think about it, pray about it... God will tell you what He thinks. Just be willing to let it not be about the money.

love,
Beka

[RunAmokFarm]

Dear Beka (and Gabe!)

I appreciate you both so much!  We had used much of the same scripture consideration and thought process when I was first offered the consulting job - and had peace about the decision.  Obviously, this afternoon, I had a moment of questioning, when looking at the "working under another man's headship" line of thinking.   

While we didn't feel this had been placing me under another man's authority... obviously, we want to do the right thing, not just what feels like the right thing - kwim?  So, THANK YOU (!!) for taking the time to answer prayerfully, and with scripture.

Will listen to the audio tomorrow, as I am DONE with the computer for this evening!
J

[Beth]

  Here's a silly question. What if your employer was a woman? And what if she was a christian? And what if she attended the same church, knew your husband and would never ask you to do something that he would not want you to. (I am not this person but I know of similar situations)  The employer (woman) owns a bakery that she runs out of her home.
   This doesn't fit the at in keepers at home. But the Proverbs 31 woman was not always at home either..."she bringeth her food from afar." She went to sell to the merchants. I'm sure she left her post well guarded when she did leave though. Such as a capable daughter or someone she trusted. Her mother or mother in law.
   Anyway just a thought.

[Amy Joy]

Beth, it seemed to me that Gabe and Beka addressed this type of thing on their recording last night.  Are you able to get the audio? 

[Amy Joy]

Gabe, on the audio, I believe I heard that working women do not earn what a male colleague in the company or industry earns.  Not even if the woman is hard-working with a PhD and the man is a known slacker with a Bachelors Degree.  There were two reasons for this phenomenon, if I remember correctly: that women are viewed by HR Departments and bosses of companies as controlling, and men are seen more like the boss's drinking buddy.  Also, something to the effect that, when a woman DOES earn more, it is because she slept with the boss.  (Without a transcript, I am operating by memory here.  )

While those observations may be true in some instances, I would like to offer the following for consideration:     

At age 26 with her MBA from a certain school, "Karyn" earned more than a hard-working married man 10 years her senior who had seniority in the company, a Bachelors Degree in business, and a family to support.  At age 28, she was recruited by a female boss to work for an all-female branch of a multinational Madison Avenue company.  There, Karyn doubled her salary and earned as much or more than equally-placed male friends from Graduate School and peers in the industry.  By age 30, Karyn was the only female executive in an international branch of a Fortune 500 company that was full of men.  There, she earned as much or more than men with similar titles or rank in companies like hers.  By the time she quit working, she earned more than the average upper-middle class man, twice as much as her father who was just a few credits away from his PhD.  And, you know, she never slept with the boss!!    Karyn was not unusual.  Other girlfriends and female colleagues, did just as well or better.  They were not man-eating, step-all-over-whoever-it-takes-types of ladies, either.  Well, one was, lol.  But there were men like that, too.  Men who would "do whatever it takes" to get to the top. 

Two sisters-in-law, one with NO college degree, never slept with their bosses, and they have always earned as much or more than their male colleagues at work.  Another close relative hired all the men and women who worked under her.  She earned significantly more than her husband, even though both were managers of different departments in the same company.  She had the degree and he didn't.   

Only one woman I knew personally, and NOT a friend to any of us, slept her way to the top.  But, she was bright enough to have risen without doing so.  It was just that, the married man who broke up her marriage and "mentored" her from within the company ALSO gave her a townhouse free and clear, a new car, furs, jewelry, and paid for her child's private school.  He took her with him to political functions, bought ball gowns for her, etc..  She is politically active in a high-profile setting today.  THOSE were the things for which she slept with him.

Why would I report these experiences of women I know personally?  What's the point?

Well, I am concerned about a relative/friend of mine and possibly other readers out there.  When she, or others like her, hear the audio, they may say to themselves, "I KNOW those points are not true:  My friends, relatives and I earn what men earn... and we didn't have to sleep with the boss or be a nasty person to do it.  Why should I consider "keepers at home" when the 7xS interpretation of it is derived in large part from strongly held yet inaccurate statements like these?  Since these statements are not true, then the conclusion based on them is surely not true, either." 

Gabe, I think misimpressions like these are often made in a snap-second.  Some may inadvertently "throw out the baby with the bath water." 

My friend/relative is back in school, upgrading her training and preparing for a lucrative return into the workforce.  Her babies will be placed in full-time daycare.  BUT, she told me recently that she is having BIG doubts about doing it.  Her husband is okay with it either way, whether she stays home or works. 

She is a believer (her husband is not), but I know she will be "turned off" by parts of the audio which are not true in her experience or in the experience of many other women. 

I was wondering whether you or Beka could address this for her in this thread?  Because, really, I think those strong statements in the audio will keep her from considering the plain truth of scripture as it relates to her personal dilemma.     

[Beth]

Beth, it seemed to me that Gabe and Beka addressed this type of thing on their recording last night.  Are you able to get the audio? 

um...this is a silly question, but, where would I find the audio? Is there a special thread for audios? I haven't been around for a while so I don't know where to find them. I looked.

[Amy Joy]

No, not silly at all, Beth.  Here is the link.   

What is a Keeper at Home?

[Sweet E]

Oops, Amy Joy responded while I was typing... 

FYI, the way I get to all the audios is www.7xsunday.net, then choose Teaching & Preaching >Audios.

E

[ridgerunner]

I've been trying to listen to the audio, but there are so many echo's its hard to make out.  Anyone else having this problem or is it just my equipment? 

And yeah, about what AmyJoy was saying...  I do not have a college degree and my husband does, and we both work at the same company, and there is only $8000 difference in our yearly salary.  Not much difference at all, especially considering his qualifications vs. my qualifications.  The difference is, I've been here 4 years and he's been here 6 months.  My managers are women, and I CERTAINLY haven't slept with them. 

I do believe in the mandate to be keepers at home, its just new to me since I came here and not something I've felt peace to step out in faith and do yet since my husband is opposed to it, and we have a large amount of debt that was created by me alone, in my selfishness and sin.   He says that when that's paid off I can quit.. but honestly after reading all this I'm starting to feel like if I died today I'd go to hell for having a job.  I don't know... this is very confusing.

[denim&lace]

ridgerunner,

Rest in your husband's decision for the moment.  There is time for prayer and discussion on the subject.  If God wants you home, God will make the way...  In my experience, even when something is a result of my sin and selfishness, if God wants it changed, He makes a way.  Prayed for ya.   
~L

[MrsHope]

I am a bit confused here too. I am coming from a different angle though. My husband owns a medium-sized company with about 50 employees. He has a few business analysts that work with him directly helping him specifically, one being a very attractive 24-year-old girl. I admit it bothers me from time to time. I guess partly because I am currently very pregnant and feeling fat and ugly and insecure. But especially when they go on business trips. I don't suspect my husband of anything, but it does still get to me. Anyway, now after listening to this recording, I am kind of disturbed. Does this girl "belong" to him since she works for him? She is unmarried. I don't think I can stomach this thought. The fact she is very attractive and talented is hard enough to swallow...

[ForeverGirl]

Hi Amy,

LOL, the audio definitely had some problems that we need to re-work. Namely my dumb likening women to public bathrooms! Sorry about that. I was thinking public versus private ownership, and bathrooms were the first thing that came to mind.    Instead, we will rework the audio to use the biblical illustration of a woman being like a garden. A public garden needs hired curators to make sure the morons don't trash it. A private garden is cared for tenderly and watchfully by the owner.

Gabe, on the audio, I believe I heard that working women do not earn what a male colleague in the company or industry earns.  Not even if the woman is hard-working with a PhD and the man is a known slacker with a Bachelors Degree.  There were two reasons for this phenomenon, if I remember correctly: that women are viewed by HR Departments and bosses of companies as controlling, and men are seen more like the boss's drinking buddy.  Also, something to the effect that, when a woman DOES earn more, it is because she slept with the boss.  (Without a transcript, I am operating by memory here.  )

While those observations may be true in some instances, I would like to offer the following for consideration:     

[Gabe here]
OK... um, well... all the statistics (US) that I can find definitely demonstrate that women as a group are less hired, lower paid for similar positions / educations / qualifications and are way less likely to have management positions. This is why there are equal access laws, Federal, State and Local female biased loan programs, tax rebates, and business incubation programs. All these are aimed at fixing this inequity.

As far as I can tell "Karyn" demonstrated this as well. She was the only woman in an all (predominantly) male office when she achieved her position. Also, the only woman that made it to "CEO pay" was the one that slept with the boss. Many women make more than their husbands, and a great many more are much more qualified in pretty much all areas than their husbands... however it is still the exception for a woman to be as successful as a man in the general work environment. That's just in the US. Look outside the US / UK / Australia / Europe and the picture is over the top slanted in favor of men.

Anyway, I am in no way attempting to demonstrate that women are in any way less capable. The point I am trying to make is that everyone agrees that the problem exists. Its just that God has a way of dealing with it and the world has a way of dealing with it. The world artificially tilts the field... and it works to a degree, but at the expense of overall productivity. God's way of dealing with it is to have a woman work for her man. Could be her dad, her husband, her brother... In all these cases she is given equal footing. Of course this depends on the quality of the man... and many men are loosers, giving their wives "equal footing," or, which is more likely, keeping their wives from gaining better footing than they have. Which is pretty crappy.

As concerns Beka and I, she is a brilliant writer... I am a pretty boring writer. She is a great designer in a general sense... I am not. If I consider all the areas of her talent or expertise and compare them to mine, I honestly do not think that there are significant differences. If I consider the number of things at which she excels I would say that they are greater than those at which I excel.

When I have a business (or other) idea, it is never nearly as good as it eventually is after we both discuss it and develop it. She and I together are truly brilliant (IMO).

So. That is what I meant to say, and I think it is right... I may have said it in a way that was a real turn-off. Maybe... you could give me some ideas about that.

Gabe, I think misimpressions like these are often made in a snap-second.  Some may inadvertently "throw out the baby with the bath water."

Right... I agree, and... maybe there is a better way to approach this. I just am not sure what it is.

My friend/relative is back in school, upgrading her training and preparing for a lucrative return into the workforce.  Her babies will be placed in full-time daycare.  BUT, she told me recently that she is having BIG doubts about doing it.  Her husband is okay with it either way, whether she stays home or works. 

She is a believer (her husband is not), but I know she will be "turned off" by parts of the audio which are not true in her experience or in the experience of many other women. 

I was wondering whether you or Beka could address this for her in this thread?  Because, really, I think those strong statements in the audio will keep her from considering the plain truth of scripture as it relates to her personal dilemma.

Yeah... more thoughts, please....

--gabe

[Gabriel Anast]

I am a bit confused here too. I am coming from a different angle though. My husband owns a medium-sized company with about 50 employees. He has a few business analysts that work with him directly helping him specifically, one being a very attractive 24-year-old girl. I admit it bothers me from time to time. I guess partly because I am currently very pregnant and feeling fat and ugly and insecure. But especially when they go on business trips. I don't suspect my husband of anything, but it does still get to me. Anyway, now after listening to this recording, I am kind of disturbed. Does this girl "belong" to him since she works for him? She is unmarried. I don't think I can stomach this thought. The fact she is very attractive and talented is hard enough to swallow...

He does pay her, she does work for him, in this sense he does provide for her her clothing, food and housing. In the Mosaic system this was completely acceptable even if she was not his "woman" (his wife). This general case covers the place of a daughter, a sister, even a mother if her husband died, and a servant.

Essentially (in the Mosiac perspective) she is his servant.

Um... but the situation does seem to be more than a little unnerving. Not sure what else I can say except learn the art of loving your man. He needs that more than anything. Pray that God would vindicate your righteousness and honor you in it.

--gabe

[Gabriel Anast]

I've been trying to listen to the audio, but there are so many echo's its hard to make out.  Anyone else having this problem or is it just my equipment? 

And yeah, about what AmyJoy was saying...  I do not have a college degree and my husband does, and we both work at the same company, and there is only $8000 difference in our yearly salary.  Not much difference at all, especially considering his qualifications vs. my qualifications.  The difference is, I've been here 4 years and he's been here 6 months.  My managers are women, and I CERTAINLY haven't slept with them. 

I do believe in the mandate to be keepers at home, its just new to me since I came here and not something I've felt peace to step out in faith and do yet since my husband is opposed to it, and we have a large amount of debt that was created by me alone, in my selfishness and sin.   He says that when that's paid off I can quit.. but honestly after reading all this I'm starting to feel like if I died today I'd go to hell for having a job.  I don't know... this is very confusing.

First, I don't think you are going to go to hell if you die tonight... heh. If you have an employee that messes something up, you don't typically fire them, you instruct them. If they mess it up again you might be a little miffed, but usually work with them. Its the employee that says, "I don't care how you do it, this is the way I do it, and that's final!" that gets fired. In my experience, God is waaay more "longsuffering" than any boss I have ever had.

I agree with Denim&Lace that you should keep going the course and pray that God would avail you of a way to make it work with your income needs, your husband and your knowledge of Him. He will (in my experience) make a way.

--gabe

[Amy Joy]

As far as I can tell "Karyn" demonstrated this [statistical reality] as well.  She was the only woman in an all (predominantly) male office when she achieved her position.  Also, the only woman that made it to "CEO pay" was the one that slept with the boss.
--gabe

Thanks for your reply Gabe.  As I look back on Karyn's varied work history from age 18 onward, she actually did not demonstrate the statistical reality because she earned as much or more than male colleagues in whatever type of job she had. 

Regarding the belief that, only women who sleep with the boss make it to "CEO pay," I would offer this:  Several women I know (personal friends) made it to the positions of CEO or CFO of various companies in the USA and abroad.  Others earn "CEO pay" but they have different titles or functions within their companies.  Only one of these women slept with the boss.  So in our personal experience and circles of friends and colleagues, my husband's and mine, the "sleep-to-the-top woman" was the exception, not the rule.  I hope that clarified any misperceptions I may have communicated.

But here was the crux of what I was hoping to communicate:   
Despite the success enjoyed by women of integrity in our circle, I STILL decided to believe God's Word when I read and thought about it.  I guess that is what I had hoped could be communicated.  There are readers out there who are like Karyn and the other women I wrote about.  Frankly, if I had looked toward statistics (universally-accepted, accurate proof of real-life inequities in the workplace) in order to justify, affirm, or convince me of the good sense of of applying God's word for my OWN life (to be a keeper at home), I might still be working, LOL.  I hope that made sense.    Anyway, I think God's Word is truth regardless, and I have not ever regretted my personal decision. 

Also, I did not want my friend/relative to miss or become distracted away from the truth that you and Beka shared in the audio by the exceptions to the statistics - which are likely part of her experience (as they were in mine) - or, by certain statements of stereotyping which also are untrue in her personal experience.

[ridgerunner]

I've been trying to listen to the audio, but there are so many echo's its hard to make out.  Anyone else having this problem or is it just my equipment? 

And yeah, about what AmyJoy was saying...  I do not have a college degree and my husband does, and we both work at the same company, and there is only $8000 difference in our yearly salary.  Not much difference at all, especially considering his qualifications vs. my qualifications.  The difference is, I've been here 4 years and he's been here 6 months.  My managers are women, and I CERTAINLY haven't slept with them. 

I do believe in the mandate to be keepers at home, its just new to me since I came here and not something I've felt peace to step out in faith and do yet since my husband is opposed to it, and we have a large amount of debt that was created by me alone, in my selfishness and sin.   He says that when that's paid off I can quit.. but honestly after reading all this I'm starting to feel like if I died today I'd go to hell for having a job.  I don't know... this is very confusing.

First, I don't think you are going to go to hell if you die tonight... heh. If you have an employee that messes something up, you don't typically fire them, you instruct them. If they mess it up again you might be a little miffed, but usually work with them. Its the employee that says, "I don't care how you do it, this is the way I do it, and that's final!" that gets fired. In my experience, God is waaay more "longsuffering" than any boss I have ever had.

I agree with Denim&Lace that you should keep going the course and pray that God would avail you of a way to make it work with your income needs, your husband and your knowledge of Him. He will (in my experience) make a way.

--gabe

D&L and Gabe, thank you both for the reassurance.  I have a huge respect for the guidance here and have been pretty distraught the last couple of days worrying about this.  I feel now like I can go back to leaving it in God's hands and watching for signs and opportunities to get out of the office and into my home. 

I was wondering about what was mentioned about the perspective of working.  Here Beka said:

I think the important thing is perspective. This woman did not see herself as working for the merchant... but rather that the merchant was buying from her. If he didn't like her wares, he could walk away. If she didn't want to sell to him, she could go elsewhere or sell something else. That merchant did not provide for her or have any authority to dictate what she did with her time and resources.

I realize that Beka was talking here about a woman who's actually working IN her home, but I kind of identified with this.  For a long time now, I've felt like I was working simply for my husband.  Because he needs me to help "clean up the mess I made" with my materialism.  I couldn't care less about keeping my job, often I hope that I'll get fired or laid off so that I can just get my baby and go home.  There have been a couple of times lately that my boss (a woman) told me to do something and my husband said "don't do it" and I didn't - and had no concern whatsoever about what my company's reaction to my disobedience to them would be.  Interestingly, they turned a blind eye to it. 

I realize this sounds like I'm trying to justify my working but I'm honestly not, I WANT to be home so bad I can't even express how much.  But I wonder if this perspective is why I had peace about resting in my husband's instruction to keep working for now. 

Anyway, thanks for the encouragement, and I continue to pray that God will make a way.

[Gabriel Anast]

Yeah... life is a trip... one of the things that I often find myself saying is along these lines,"God is not who I expected Him to be." As far as I can tell from this end of the internet... you are indeed in the right place, Ridgerunner. Just don't quit fighting, learning or seeking. Not for a moment.

--gabe

PS: I guess I would say this in the same way that I would to someone in prison. Its not the right place (as concerns Biblical understanding) but it is the right place for the moment. Don't (if I may) be satisfied with it.

[Gabriel Anast]

Cool... thanks, and I hope it is helpful to them.

I also uploaded a "version 2" of the audio. Now its about 20 minutes longer, and has a couple other topics.

What is a Keeper-at-Home v2

--gabe

PS: After listening to v2 I get the impression that I am saying that knitting (for example) is less productive than other commercial endeavors... I also did not necessarily mean to say that. I meant to emphasize the idea of doing whatever is most productive for your man. It might be very simple. In any case it will be as varied as will his work for his God. After all, as I see it, it will be your work for this same God as well.

[SC lady]

I also uploaded a "version 2" of the audio. Now its about 20 minutes longer, and has a couple other topics.

What is a Keeper-at-Home v2

--gabe

Love the baby noises!!! -- Oh yeah & the topic content is GREAT (but the baby wins for cuteness factor) 

[Amy Joy]

Gabe, I think the new audio reflects a misunderstanding about what I was trying to communicate in earlier posts.  So, I thought I would clarify it.   I was not in any way put off by what you said about the statistics or the existence of inequities for women in the workplace in the Western World and Third-World countries.  I do not disagree with the statistics or what they bear out.  I also did not think you were saying that women are less capable, intelligent, qualified or talented than men.  My intent was to communicate two things.  First, that, notwithstanding the statistics, there are many women in the work force (several of whom my husband and I know) who, based solely on their abilities and qualifications, earn as much or more than similarly situated men.  Second, my concern was, that, if those women read this thread or listen to the audio, they might end up rejecting or dismissing the idea of being a keeper at home if the reasoning offered for doing so was statistics and stereotypes which don't apply to their particular situation.  I hope that clarifies what I was trying to say.  Thanks. 

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