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[Homeschool_Newbie]

This is part 2 of another question I was asking... because my mom seems a little upset that we are not doing any "activities" at the moment with our children.  We don't attend anything where we cannot watch all of our children and know what is going on. For those of you with large families, if you can't watch all the kids and know what's going on, do you just choose not to participate? Is there an age where you might feel comfortable *not* watching an older child at say, a church function?

[Gabriel Anast]

I think this depends a lot on maturity, but also has to do with gender and natural order.

My understanding of the Bible is that a daughter is like a wife in many respects. To be a "keeper at home" and if she works to work for her father. As I see it, this does not obviate soccer or similar... but, I would not just drop her off at practice... I would be there with her. Even if she were 18. Just like I would with my wife. Also, just like I would with my wife, there are many things that I would not at all be worried about her doing without me... its just that generally I do what I do with her.

Boys are different, as I see it, and depending on age and maturity should be encouraged to "stand on their own." Be in situations where it is up to them to make decisions, bear responsibility, etc. It is important for them to be prepared to be submitted to God in all situations. As far as I can tell, this requires situations where they are among a sea of peers. I do this with my oldest sometimes by letting him make the next decision, one that I have chosen such that failure will not be catastrophic... but a little painful, and success will be commensurate with his skill and ability to accurately appraise the success.

OK... having said that, I am not at all limiting as to what my daughters can do... and I don't push my sons "to be men" before they are able. Its just that I actively limit / provide the activities within the above constraints. Everyone has constraints (money / time / societal pressure / etc) and some even constrain themselves thoughtfully. That is the idea here.

As an aside... uh... note that your mom evidently does not have these qualities of self-constraint. Be aware of this lack in her.

--gabe

[Homeschool_Newbie]

Boys are different, as I see it, and depending on age and maturity should be encouraged to "stand on their own." Be in situations where it is up to them to make decisions, bear responsibility, etc. It is important for them to be prepared to be submitted to God in all situations. As far as I can tell, this requires situations where they are among a sea of peers. I do this with my oldest sometimes by letting him make the next decision, one that I have chosen such that failure will not be catastrophic... but a little painful, and success will be commensurate with his skill and ability to accurately appraise the success.

This is a good point about boys, Gabe.

What I am thinking most specifically of is protecting my children from the molesters and such that may be hanging out in what people think of as " good" situations, like church. Do you think there's an age where boys ( or girls) know how to run from that? My oldest son is almost 9.

As a side note, I am laughing thinking of any future daughter that may enter our family... She would have at least 4 or 5 older brothers

[Homeschool_Newbie]

Maybe Gabe or someone here could give me an example of letting a 9 year old boy " stand on his own" so to speak... Whether in a group setting or elsewhere...

Just to give an example: my Dh used take the boys to AWANA, and he stayed the entire time. Mainly, he was keeping an eye on the bathroom situation... but we also ran into situations where my kindergartener was told ( by another boy) to go kiss a girl ( which he did not) and another boy encouraged my  boys to steal.
Is there an age where a boy should learn to " stand on his own" in these sitations and also navigate any um... unseemly types of things he might run into at a public restroom? Up until now, my boys have been pretty young, but I want to make sure I am not hindering their development...

[Gabriel Anast]

Maybe Gabe or someone here could give me an example of letting a 9 year old boy " stand on his own" so to speak... Whether in a group setting or elsewhere...

Just to give an example: my Dh used take the boys to AWANA, and he stayed the entire time. Mainly, he was keeping an eye on the bathroom situation... but we also ran into situations where my kindergartener was told ( by another boy) to go kiss a girl ( which he did not) and another boy encouraged my  boys to steal.
Is there an age where a boy should learn to " stand on his own" in these sitations and also navigate any um... unseemly types of things he might run into at a public restroom? Up until now, my boys have been pretty young, but I want to make sure I am not hindering their development...

Yeah... heh... not Awana. As a matter of fact I have made a point to make my children's lives as secular as possible for the specific reason that they not get caught in the idea that there are "good activities" and "bad activities." It might seem crazy, but in all things we teach moderation, and we let them experience all things as is appropriate for age / maturity. I know that's not really the point here, but I feel its appropriate to mention.

But anyway, its just like anything... walking in the street for instance. When your child is very small and has no capacity to understand the danger of being in the street, you carry them. You don't even let them have the opportunity to walk when they are near the street. Later you let them walk with you and you hold their hand. At this stage you might even say, as you are preparing to cross the street, "OK, I am looking both ways to see if its safe to cross the street." They may or may not understand, but they are vaguely aware of you making some kind of important pause when crossing the street. Later still, when they can understand the ideas, you tell them about cars and the danger of cars and the danger of the street. You tell them to never go near the street without and adult, etc. As they mature and get older you then begin to instruct them on how to use the street properly (riding a bike or crossing it). You tell them how to look both ways and how to approach it carefully. You do it with them a umber of times and observe them doing it. If they fail to pause or to look both ways you correct them and again instruct them in careful handling of this potentially dangerous situation. They are fast learners, they "get it" and are proud of their maturity and ability. You have brought them from a place of incapacity and ignorance to a place of wisdom, understanding and knowledge.

It is like this in all areas of life. Its not something that will just happen, and there are very real dangers that they must learn to avoid.

On the other hand, being told to kiss a girl and then doing it is not a huge danger in a specific sense. What it does betray is a lack of knowledge about "boys and girls" in the fist place, and possibly a general gullibility or willingness to do anything that anyone says to do. A misunderstanding of who deserved honor and who doesn't and why.

Anyway... as concerns my earlier post, don't misunderstand me to say that girls don't need all this (above) as well. As concerns girls in specific, I just believe that it is the father's place specifically (but the mother's as well, obviously) to protect his daughters in the same manner that he protects / provides for his wife. On the other hand a boy should be taught and trained to take the place of a provider and protector in his father's right.

Wisdom, knowledge and understanding are universally applicable and needful for both men and women. Its just that as I understand created order, they fill different roles. Back to wisdom, knowledge and understanding I guess.

--gabe

[horsemama]

As a matter of fact I have made a point to make my children's lives as secular as possible for the specific reason that they not get caught in the idea that there are "good activities" and "bad activities." It might seem crazy, but in all things we teach moderation, and we let them experience all things as is appropriate for age / maturity. I know that's not really the point here, but I feel its appropriate to mention.

This statement really jumped out at me. My 13yo dd goes to a "Praise Dance" class...... we have allowed her to do it, as it is a group of homeschooled young girls and we cannot really give her a good reason why she shouldn't, but dh and I both *hate* it!    Sigh, maybe it's just the teacher, but the whole thing is so.... *churchy* ...... and *religious*. I wish my dd would rather do ballet... or modern... or hiphop.... but THIS is the class she wants to do.
 And yes, I stay and watch, because I want to be able to talk it through with her, and "de-program" all the religion-speak afterwards......

Her two younger sisters, however, I happily drop off at Ballet, amoungst non-Christian kids, on thier own. At least I *know* what they are learning there. Ballet only!

Isn't there something sad about this picture???

[MomOf8]

Gabe,

My dc spend some time riding bikes, etc.  with kids in the neighborhood-- the sea of peers (middle school age).  So lately, they have come home telling me  bad jokes/words, suggestive comments.  Are you saying to give them a chance to make their own decisions on how to handle this?  I just doubt that any decision my dc would make would change their behavior, right?   My dh has even talked to some of the kids, but nothing really changed.   I know you said you didn't want to distinguish "good" vs. "bad" activities, but I guess I tend to view this as they are behaving badly and now have to decide how I am going to handle this--wishing we could move away.  Do you have any advice?  Thank you.

[Homeschool_Newbie]

My dc spend some time riding bikes, etc.  with kids in the neighborhood-- the sea of peers (middle school age).  So lately, they have come home telling me  bad jokes/words, suggestive comments.  Are you saying to give them a chance to make their own decisions on how to handle this?  I just doubt that any decision my dc would make would change their behavior, right?   My dh has even talked to some of the kids, but nothing really changed.   I know you said you didn't want to distinguish "good" vs. "bad" activities, but I guess I tend to view this as they are behaving badly and now have to decide how I am going to handle this--wishing we could move away.  Do you have any advice?  Thank you.

Momof8, I too am looking forward to a reply on this...Based on my own childhood experience, I will tell you that the neighborhood kid thing was not positive.... because mom didn't keep an eye on us while we were playing. My next door neighbor was a christian from a christian family, but other than that, I learned about s*x at the age of 4 from a nieghbor girl, and saw a boy pull his pants down in front of me and a friend. I don't remember what else I learned from my neighbors, but I do believe that some of the things my parents would have liked to teach first were taught in the neighborhood.   I was allowed to play in " the woods" near my home with a boy slightly older than me.  Praise God nothing ever came of it, though I know it could have.  Anyway, for these reasons, my children are not allowed to play alone with anyone at this point... but like I said, they are still fairly young. I am wondering when the rules start to change.

[Homeschool_Newbie]

Yeah... heh... not Awana. As a matter of fact I have made a point to make my children's lives as secular as possible for the specific reason that they not get caught in the idea that there are "good activities" and "bad activities." It might seem crazy, but in all things we teach moderation, and we let them experience all things as is appropriate for age / maturity. I know that's not really the point here, but I feel its appropriate to mention.

Gabe, let me see if I understand you right: Are you saying that if we take our kids to mostly " christian" event and and activities, that they may get a false sense that they are all good? What I am saying, is that if a child only experiences " Christian" based events,  he/she may get the false sense that it's " all good" and that all secular events are " all bad" when in reality many things are neither good nor bad?  I am guessing this because I got the false sense ( growing up) that the christians in the church were ALL good, and that any " christian" sponsered event was definately GOOD.  Looking at the church I grew up in, I am now very saddened by the way many of  my peers turned out, and also saddened that the adults weren't all that I thought they were, either... Is this what you are getting at?

[ladyhen]

I'm totally with Gabe on this issue.  Our dc have been just about equally active in 'Christian' and secular activities.  We, of course, stay very near and involved in order to protect and guide them. 
In their elementary years, we had most neighborhood activities in our yard in order to better be able to supervise and direct the play.  We didn't try too hard to Christianize or evangelize playmates in the early elementary group.   We already have a reputation in our neighborhood as 'Those Christian people'.      However, we are not adverse to asking children with bad language to clean it up or leave our yard.   Haven't had too many of them persist; they know I provide nice snacks.     We haven't been big fans of a lot of running around for each individual child.  That may be partly due to financial constraints.
Our children have made mistakes in judgment; talking about the 10 - 16 yr old years here.  But because they had the foundation of a loving home where mistakes are readily discussed and forgiven, there was no need for them to hide from learning lessons from mistakes.   Recently I was talking to my brother about some of the dumb stuff our children have done in the past year.  His teen son recently turned his heart back to his parents, my brother said.  "And," he told me, "Ain't restoration wonderful?!" 
I know that it is difficult to decide when each child is ready to be allowed more freedoms and decision making opportunities.  We pray for wisdom in this area and have been sorry on occasion for allowing certain people or activities.  But then, the reward for 'tempering' our children has been strong, dedicated adults.   Their growing up years need to be a time of gradual release; parents and home need to be somewhere that they really want to come back to.

[Homeschool_Newbie]

I'm totally with Gabe on this issue.  Our dc have been just about equally active in 'Christian' and secular activities.  We, of course, stay very near and involved in order to protect and guide them.

Ladyhen, are you saying that you saw the benefit of kids learning how to deal with secular people by *not* making all their activities 'christian'.? I can see why this would be a benefit... unfortunately for me, I have the problem of finding like minded people.... It seems like the like minded ones, the ones we hope our kids will marry are the difficult ones to find... Maybe in some circles, people have to branch out to  find the " non christian" activities... For me, it's a problem of finding the christian ones...maybe not even 'christian' per say, but " like minded"....Anyway, I am getting a bit off topic here.

[ladyhen]

Well . . . We didn't actually try to find 'like-minded' friends for them and just monitored those that were available.  It made for a LOT of interesting conversations at home.
Being exposed to many diverse beliefs, behaviors, and world views gives our children the opportunity to compare what we believe and teach with what they see and hear in others.  Sometimes our children (I'm talking about 9 - 16 yr old usually) have bought into other beliefs for a time.  It's very hard to watch them go through a period of questioning our foundations.  But, we believe and have seen in our children, they do come back to what it Truth.  This is assuming that what they are taught at home is Truth. 

As I said, we believe that this tempers, or strengthens, their character and allows them to learn to trust their foundational beliefs and to interact with others from the safety of being a beloved child. 
Sheltering them as young children is very important.   But at some point in their lives, they will be making decisions and interacting with people who are not like-minded.  We try to make that transition smooth by exposing them a little at a time to all sorts of people and situations.

What this looks like in practice;
  1) 11 yr old ds began doing yardwork for several of the neighbors, most of whom are not Christians.  We are at home, know where he is, but are not actively supervising.
  2) 14 yr old dd volunteered at a local non-profit organization.  At first, I was there with her.  Once I got to know a woman there well enough to know that she understood protecting young girls, we allow dd to occasionally go when this woman is there.
  3)  dc, at the ages of 12, 15, and 17 became involved in a community theater.  They are permitted to attend work parties, practices, and costuming meetings under the supervision of the oldest dd. 
  4) currently our 16 yo dd is playing piano for the jazz ensemble at the public school.  A friend (not Christian) picks her up early Friday for practices.  She then walks over to the elementary school where she assists the art teacher, a Christian friend, with special ed classes. 
  5)  17 & 15 yr old dds were invited to a party at the home of a young couple in the church who don't share our beliefs about purity, modesty, separation, etc.  They were not permitted to attend; invitation graciously declined.
hope that helps

[Siege]

I agree with a lot on here. My take: If one of us cannot be there, we don't do it. My oldest will be 11 on the 22nd. He has dyslexia and is very immature (I have read that these go hand in hand). He is very trusting of people he should not trust yet. He has no clue (or when he does he hides it) when someone us making fun of him or bullying him. He is not ready to be on his own yet. (Off the subject, but if anyone has advice for me on dealing with an immature child, PM me. He is easily sidetracked and still plays with toys as a little boy. He works like a man with dad at least once a week...maybe it is an oldest thing?)

My middle son, on the other hand MAY be ready to do things on his own at 11 (he'll be 9 soon). Not sure on the youngest as if yet.

About like mindedness. It is fine to choose friends for the children that are like-minded, but personally I have seen flaws in choosing all friends based on like- mindedness. In my husband's case, he never knew there were other "Christians" besides those at his parents' church, until we recently left it. He's 36. Sad, IMHO.

No one should make you feel forced into placing your children into an activity. YOU are the parent. YOU answer to God for your choices. If you don't feel comfortable with an activity, then they don't do it. You don't have to justify yourself. I just say, "I'm sorry. That won't work for us." end of subject. No reason needed.

Now, a bit off topic, but my mil gave my dh a TERRIBLE letter. At the end she used a verse in Dueteronomy that says to command your children of the things in the law. She says that God has commanded her to command things to my husband because she does not see anywhere that an age is defined for him to no longer be a child (let alone hers). This seems like a good thread to ask if there are any verses that he might use when speaking with his parents tonight. (Already have the "leave and cleave" verse in mind.) So, when is a boy no longer a child?

CJ 

[Homeschool_Newbie]

What this looks like in practice;
  1) 11 yr old ds began doing yardwork for several of the neighbors, most of whom are not Christians.  We are at home, know where he is, but are not actively supervising.
  2) 14 yr old dd volunteered at a local non-profit organization.  At first, I was there with her.  Once I got to know a woman there well enough to know that she understood protecting young girls, we allow dd to occasionally go when this woman is there.
  3)  dc, at the ages of 12, 15, and 17 became involved in a community theater.  They are permitted to attend work parties, practices, and costuming meetings under the supervision of the oldest dd. 
  4) currently our 16 yo dd is playing piano for the jazz ensemble at the public school.  A friend (not Christian) picks her up early Friday for practices.  She then walks over to the elementary school where she assists the art teacher, a Christian friend, with special ed classes. 
  5)  17 & 15 yr old dds were invited to a party at the home of a young couple in the church who don't share our beliefs about purity, modesty, separation, etc.  They were not permitted to attend; invitation graciously declined.
hope that helps

Ladyhen, it most definately helps to have some type of example of how this can work.  I know it will be different in each family, but these are some good examples.

I can't tell you how unqualified I feel to be doing what I am doing right now. I was raised by Christian parents, but in the " typical" way....  The way that Dh and I are  raising out children is like a completely different path... It is a bit overwhelming at times. I sometimes feel like I have no idea what in the world we are doing here. It's like being moses... " Who am I God?" I know he does not call the equipped, but eqips the called... *SIGH* My poor firstborn is the guinea pig here. I just can't learn fast enough... I feel like we are running out of time or something... The things I have leearned from the h.school pioneers have completly blown my mind and made a lot of sense, most of the time.

[smfmommy]

Now, a bit off topic, but my mil gave my dh a TERRIBLE letter. At the end she used a verse in Dueteronomy that says to command your children of the things in the law. She says that God has commanded her to command things to my husband because she does not see anywhere that an age is defined for him to no longer be a child (let alone hers). This seems like a good thread to ask if there are any verses that he might use when speaking with his parents tonight. (Already have the "leave and cleave" verse in mind.) So, when is a boy no longer a child?

When the Israelites refused to believe God and enter into the promised land God said all those 20 and over would die in the wilderness.  So at the very latest I would say a boy becomes a man, accountable for his own actions, at the age of 20.  I know Michael Pearl has a whole sermon on this (Honor Thy Father and Mother), but that won't help you for tonight.

 

[ladyhen]

I can't tell you how unqualified I feel to be doing what I am doing right now. I was raised by Christian parents, but in the " typical" way....  The way that Dh and I are  raising out children is like a completely different path... It is a bit overwhelming at times.

One thing that time has taught me is that we are ALL amateurs; unqualified to be raising our own children.  I mean, each child is so different and requires a unique approach to reach their hearts.  The Bible says to "train up a child in the way he should go . . . " (emphasis mine) and I believe that the ongoing challenge for us as parents is to be vigilant to know the way to train each child, as individuals.   
We, too, have taken a different direction with parenting than our parents took and have struggled to honor them while leading our family correctly.   
Prayer and Bible reading help a LOT with this.

[ladyhen]

Now, a bit off topic, but my mil gave my dh a TERRIBLE letter. At the end she used a verse in Dueteronomy that says to command your children of the things in the law. She says that God has commanded her to command things to my husband because she does not see anywhere that an age is defined for him to no longer be a child (let alone hers). This seems like a good thread to ask if there are any verses that he might use when speaking with his parents tonight. (Already have the "leave and cleave" verse in mind.) So, when is a boy no longer a child?

CJ 

CJ,  Aside from verses about women usurping authority, he may want to read up about the Holy Spirit being what God uses to speak to His own.    I know your situation is touchy, and much prayer is needed.   Don't know how you could avoid this sort of stuff .   
But how about this;

 Proverbs 2:1
My son, if thou wilt receive my words, and hide my commandments with thee;
 2 So that thou incline thine ear unto wisdom, and apply thine heart to understanding;
 3 Yea, if thou criest after knowledge, and liftest up thy voice for understanding;
 4 If thou seekest her as silver, and searchest for her as for hid treasures;
 5 Then shalt thou understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God.
 6 For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding.
 7 He layeth up sound wisdom for the righteous: he is a buckler to them that walk uprightly.
 8 He keepeth the paths of judgment, and preserveth the way of his saints.
 9 Then shalt thou understand righteousness, and judgment, and equity; yea, every good path.
 10 ¶ When wisdom entereth into thine heart, and knowledge is pleasant unto thy soul;
 11 Discretion shall preserve thee, understanding shall keep thee:

[ridgerunner]

My DH just told our DD yesterday that we are going to start taking her to Sunday School.  This came as a surprise to me, but looks like that's what we're going to do.   

Anyone who DOES let your child participate in these activities - are there any precautions you take before letting your child go to Sunday School?  Other than the obvious, like know the people there, know the teacher, (as much as possible) know the kids that will be in her class... any advice?  Trying to have peace about this, but I can't honestly say that I'm comfortable sending her to Sunday School.   

[denim&lace]

If your husband would be OK with it, you might ask if they need a teachers helper in your dd's class. 

[ridgerunner]

If your husband would be OK with it, you might ask if they need a teachers helper in your dd's class. 

That's a good idea.  We don't currently go to church though, will be finding one to start at since he's decided that DD needs to go to Sunday School, so since we'll be new, I don't know that they'll be open to that right away.  Definitely a good option though if we find one where the 'people in charge' know me. Thanks!

[snowflake]

Most of the churches I have been in allow a parent to stay with the child...especially when they are little and you are new, to get them used to it.  I have done this a lot    Also, it helps you get to know the teacher and the kids that will be influencing your daughter.  The only drawback is that you can't be with your DH at the same time 

[cjanderin]

Anyone who DOES let your child participate in these activities - are there any precautions you take before letting your child go to Sunday School?  Other than the obvious, like know the people there, know the teacher, (as much as possible) know the kids that will be in her class... any advice?  Trying to have peace about this, but I can't honestly say that I'm comfortable sending her to Sunday School.   

Our children go to Sunday school but the idea of not knowing the teacher and other children is a little foreign to me - we have a small church and we know the other people (teachers, children and their parents) involved in Sunday School very well. 
I would second going along with your daughter.  If DH says she is going to go (and have you tried to discuss this with him or is that not an option?  Does he realise you aren't so keen on the idea?), then what about the option of becoming involved in the class?  An extra hands is almost always welcome

[ridgerunner]

and have you tried to discuss this with him or is that not an option?  Does he realise you aren't so keen on the idea?

I'm extremely hesitant to say anything like that to him since he's not saved, and has only recently stopped saying that he's an athiest and has started mentioning prayer, etc.  Wanting DD to go to Sunday School seems like a step in the right direction for him, and if his "christian" wife suddenly was opposed to the idea.... 

[Homeschool_Newbie]

Quote from: Homeschool_Newbie on February 16, 2010, 10:51:38 AM

I can't tell you how unqualified I feel to be doing what I am doing right now.  I was raised by Christian parents, but in the " typical" way....  The way that Dh and I are  raising out children is like a completely different path... It is a bit overwhelming at times.

One thing that time has taught me is that we are ALL amateurs; unqualified to be raising our own children.  I mean, each child is so different and requires a unique approach to reach their hearts.  The Bible says to "train up a child in the way he should go . . . " (emphasis mine) and I believe that the ongoing challenge for us as parents is to be vigilant to know the way to train each child, as individuals.   
We, too, have taken a different direction with parenting than our parents took and have struggled to honor them while leading our family correctly.   
Prayer and Bible reading help a LOT with this.

Thank you, Ladyhen

[denim&lace]

and have you tried to discuss this with him or is that not an option?  Does he realise you aren't so keen on the idea?

I'm extremely hesitant to say anything like that to him since he's not saved, and has only recently stopped saying that he's an athiest and has started mentioning prayer, etc.  Wanting DD to go to Sunday School seems like a step in the right direction for him, and if his "christian" wife suddenly was opposed to the idea.... 

I think you are right in letting God lead him RR.  Praying.

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