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[horsemama]

We just discovered that out 17yo son has been texting (a LOT) with a 16 yo girl who he is very fond of.    We are not proponents of rigid courtship models, but we do not allow our kids to do recreational dating either. When they are old enough to consider marriage, that is a good time to start "dating" or "courting" of "looking for a spouse"... whatever form that may take.

Our other teens (daughters) are in agreement with this, and our son *says* he is.... until a pretty girl comes along   This girl is sweet, she is a Christian and homeschooled, her parents are quite OK with her having a "boyfriend", in fact they are quite happy it is my son she is interested in......

Anyhow, dh happened to see our son's phone bill, and all the many, many text messages he has sent...... like 30 a day!! They "chat" via text.  He (dh) is really angry, and has told ds he needs to break it off immediately and meet with the girls parents to apologise for leading thier dd on.

I am torn...... how long can you prescribe to your kids that they follow your ways? This boy will be 18 in a few months, and in every other way he is mature & responsible way beyond his years. I posted here recently about him, regarding finishing a book education, vs. hand-on work, if you remember. He is *NOT* ready to marry yet though... for one thing he cannot support a wife.  He says he really likes this girl, and apart from all the texting, nothing is "going on"    This is the 3rd time he has gotten into a relationship with a girl.... both previous times we made him break it off and end all contact.

I am afraid that our relationship will be soured by not allowing him to date, dh feels that as long as ds is living under our roof, he must abide by our rules. Our goal has always been that our kids know what they believe for themselves... if it is not thier OWN values, by this age.... well, the time for for imposing our values on them is past.......

help, please..... I'm feeling very sad and discouraged about it all

[amy3js]

Ok, ** I'm not "older and wiser" like many of the women here so take that for what it's worth**, but, if he is ready and willing to marry her and her parents agree, why not allow him to provide for himself and marry her as soon as he can do that? From all you have said about this son, it doesn't seem that there is any reason he is not already providing for himself except that he has no drive to (or possibly isn't "allowed" to??) He is at the age that, IF he obeys his mother and father, it is only out of respect for you or financial dependence on you. It seems like a good opportunity to push him out of the nest and if this girl would make a good wife, then, IMO, encourage him to grab onto her! Women like that seem rare nowadays and it seems a shame to force him to pass her up just because he is "only" 17.  Of course, if he is unwilling to marry and support her or if her father says she can't be married, then you're right- he needs to cease communication.  IMHO, anyway, which is a young opinion. 

[RunAmokFarm]

Of course, your husband's word is the final authority... so whatever you say or do should be with the utmost respect and caution regarding his wishes.  That said, it may be that he would be open to the idea of allowing your son to make a serious stand, if indeed you son is honestly SERIOUS about this young lady, and not just digging in because of the previous situations.

It may very well be that your son would balk at the idea of actually proposing - and that would put a stop to the relationship without your husband being the one to make the decision...  However, if your son really is serious... maybe, if he were allowed to ask for this young lady's hand, just maybe he really IS ready to hustle, work HARD for a small piece of property, and get his new family settled in?   

As to her father, in truth, very few would commit to saying "YES" for a 16 year old young lady... however, if her parents are willing to allow her to "date" your son, one would think they are, as believers, already considering her future seriously.  If her father says NO, then this has come from someone other than your husband. 

Just some thoughts...
J

[seekingtruth]

A couple quick things that came to mind as I was reading this.  I do agree that it is probably past time to lay down the law so to speak.  It sounds like you are dealing with a man , albeit a very young one, and he must make his own decisions. 

I wonder if he truly understands the implications of what he is doing.  If he is serious about her and ready to pursue marriage, then I would let that path go to its conclusion. 

If is is just more of a new experience or thrill- I would just try to stress the seriousness of what he is doing, intentionally or not.  When you become emotionally involved in that manner, then you lose a part of your heart, your purity, etc.  Does he really want to hurt her in such a way if he is not in a position to pursue marriage?  Does he understand how cruel and destructive it is?  Would he want to marry a girl that had already given her heart to another man and been hurt by him?  Even though it is a typical scenario in today's world, it is hurtful and leaves scars that are not erasable (ask me how I know  ). 

I believe that if he better understood the seriousness of the situation and the likely consequences that he would make a wise and informed decision. 

[horsemama]

I wonder if he truly understands the implications of what he is doing.  If he is serious about her and ready to pursue marriage, then I would let that path go to its conclusion. 

If is is just more of a new experience or thrill- I would just try to stress the seriousness of what he is doing, intentionally or not.  When you become emotionally involved in that manner, then you lose a part of your heart, your purity, etc.  Does he really want to hurt her in such a way if he is not in a position to pursue marriage?  Does he understand how cruel and destructive it is?  Would he want to marry a girl that had already given her heart to another man and been hurt by him?  Even though it is a typical scenario in today's world, it is hurtful and leaves scars that are not erasable (ask me how I know  ). 

I believe that if he better understood the seriousness of the situation and the likely consequences that he would make a wise and informed decision. 

He is not ready or willing to marry her. He just wants to date her. he doesn't se a problem with that. That's what I meant about not "buying" the courtship thing.

What seekingtruth said above... is exactly the angle we are taking with him. he has no right to mess with the heart of a girl he is not going to marry (yet). But he just doesn't see the issue in not dating. He thinks it is harmless fun.   And... in truth, I think he got in over his head without realising it. They like each other, they are "friends", they started texting...it grew..... sigh....

[horsemama]

dh and I just had a long talk with our son. It seems to be a freindship that grew out of control very fast... stupid to get into it in the first place seeing as there were "feelings"  on both sides.......

Also..... he was trying to "rescue her". She has some issues with her parents.... dad works away often, mom struggles to cop on her own, etc.  Of all 3 girls our son has become emotionally attached to, they have ALL been "rescue" cases!

What IS it about a guy that always chooses damaged girls to rescue? Help me understand this please?

[Aura]

My oldest is 13, so this is not an issue for us...yet. Though courtship is the way we're planning and training, I'm also aware that, especially with this headstrong boy, he could easily choose to do something else, all the while justifying it in his mind.

While I can't really offer any advice, there is an article I've saved to show my boys when they're ready. It was written by a young man who, as far as when this was written, is not married.

It's mostly about sex before marriage, but that's pretty much where dating ends up. IMO the main reason girls get into a sexual relationship before they're married is because they're already emotionally tied to the boy, or want to be. This is why dating is so dangerous, especially for the girls, because it ties them emotionally to someone who should be their husband, but most likely won't. And this article, I think, does a good job of putting this into a guy's perspective. It also addresses some other things from a guy's perspective.

Anyway, here is the article, for what it's worth. It may be of use to you in your situation...or may not.

http://www.leaderu.com/everystudent/sex/articles/wolves.html

[Homeschool_Newbie]

Horsemama- Obviously I am years behind you, so I can't really offer any advice... but to remind you to remember the power of prayer in this situation.

I do feel bad for our teens... there is so much they can do to communicate nowdays through texting and internet-- things that were not even a temptation (because they were not available ) when I was a teen. I am sure it takes a lot of resolve to carry out one's convictions with all of this easy communication nowdays.

I was allowed to "date", and I had Christian parents. They expressed concern about non christian guys, but never put an end to it.   Courtship was just unheard of, as far as I knew. It's a shame that I grew up this way, but now there's a lot I'd like to share with your son about the dangers of dating.... and being a Christian. Just to encourage you, though: Mom never stopped praying for me.  She prayed I'd have a godly husband.   I DO have a godly husband, and a fantastic marriage.
I know that mom is praising God for that. Never stop praying for your son. Mom didn't pray for my sister this way... and the results of her life are totally different than mine.

[SC lady]

Thanks for the link, Aura  Saving that article!

. . . And I echo this:

Mom never stopped praying for me.  She prayed I'd have a godly husband.   I DO have a godly husband, and a fantastic marriage. I know that mom is praising God for that. Never stop praying for your son.

They may get so tall you have to tiptoe and stretch to hug them, but they can never out-reach your prayers! Occasionally, my oldest will say in frustration: "Mama! You've been praying again haven't you!?"   

Yes, son . . .ALWAYS 

[Beth]

Thanks for the link, Aura  Saving that article!

. . . And I echo this:

Mom never stopped praying for me.  She prayed I'd have a godly husband.   I DO have a godly husband, and a fantastic marriage. I know that mom is praising God for that. Never stop praying for your son.

They may get so tall you have to tiptoe and stretch to hug them, but they can never out-reach your prayers! Occasionally, my oldest will say in frustration: "Mama! You've been praying again haven't you!?"   

Yes, son . . .ALWAYS 

       Oh yes, we do keep praying! Even when they have their own families. You just don't stop being that praying mom. It was easier when they were little and you could say" don't touch that you'll get burned." When they are grown, sometimes you can't say a word, you just pray!

[provided4]

Reading the original post, is the husband upset about the cost of the text messaging or the texting itself? Whose paying the phone bills? If the son is still living in your home isn't he still under your husbands headship? If he couldn't text how would he communicate with this girl?

[horsemama]

dh was somewhat upset about the phone bill, but my son will pay it. He was also upset about the girl's phone bill - hers must have been the same... she was using her mom's phone. Our son needs to have a mobile phone, because of the work he does on the farm and for dh.  The phone bill, however was a very minor concern, compared to the emotional implications of this relationship

An update....... Daniel, my son, spoke to the girl, and told her he would not communicate with her again. She needs to find another confidant, advisor, friend... a woman who can help her. He also met with some older guy friends at his church, including the youth leader and the pastor & his wife. Turns out the pastor & wife have been counselling the girl for a while now, as she is depressed and has had conflict with her parents. They are scheduling a meeting where they can all get together with the girl & her parents.........

[Homeschool_Newbie]

An update....... Daniel, my son, spoke to the girl, and told her he would not communicate with her again.

Oh,  I was praying for this Horsemama (I do hope this girl gets the help she needs) Maybe he has learned his lesson... and God willing, the next time he falls for someone, you'll have a very special DIL!

[SC lady]

horsemama, I've been reading this thread with interest. I appears that your son may have a real heart for helping others. If you husband knows of opportunities for your son to help others apart from the emotional boy/girl entanglements, it might meet a need and insulate him from future missteps . . . But that would be for your husband to decide. Some men definitely need to have opportunities to be heroes. . . . Which can be a good thing, rightly channeled. 
~Praying

[milothebean]

This is not a teaching, this is just my opinion on the matter. Feel free to disregard if it doesn't suit your situation in any way.

Is your son under your husband's headship? Absolutely he is. But as far as I can tell, the problem here isn't your husband's headship, or your son's respect. The problem is that you have an almost fully grown man having the rules of a child being imposed upon him. It's frustrating for him, and frustrating for the parents.

The Scriptures teach us in Proverbs 18:22, "Whoso findeth a wife findeth a good thing, and obtaineth favour of Yahweh." I understand that as a parent, it seems like it's your responsibility to shelter him from making bad decisions, or at least decisions that you consider "bad" given our modern cultural understanding. But consider this, that it seems, without watering it down, that most straightforward reading of this Proverb is "to find a wife is to find a good thing, and it obtains favor from Yahweh." If your son is as responsible as you suggest he is, why would you withhold from him the opportunity to find a good thing, and obtain favor from Yahweh?

Your son is almost 17. I would humbly suggest to you that shielding him from the world at this point will do far more harm than good. And who knows- by his parents backing off, it might give him the motivation he needs to procure a steady income to be capable of supporting a family of his own. Then everyone's happy!

If your morals and convictions haven't been sufficiently impressed on him by this point in his life, then it's probably time to bury the proverbial hatchet. Let him go his own way, and pray that he will follow in the path you've laid out for him.

So I come back to my initial point. This has nothing to do with your husband's (his father's) headship. IMHO, A man your son's age really should be capable of making this decision for himself, and for parents to place a ruling over his ability to acquire a wife (hence acquiring a good thing), while it is certainly their "parental right" to do so, it is probably overstepping their parental boundaries.

[horsemama]

Milothebean.... I agree with you. And that was my concern when I wrote the OP.  I DO feel that we are imposing a child's rules on this young MAN.

The problem is though, that he is not looking for a wife. He says he would not marry this girl. For one thing she is too young. She is still in school (homeschooled) and her parents would not allow it. Secondly, she is "troubled". Daniel says she would not be a good wife....... at this point anyway.  And for all Daniel's maturity in other areas, this is one area where he still has some growing up to do. He is like that bullock that Mr. Pearl talks about, bawling at the fence at all the pretty cows......

It seems this started out as a friendship, and attraction and emotions got in the way. This girl confided a lot of "stuff" to Daniel, which created an unhealthy bond.   Actually, the person I hurt for most in all of this is the girl. I know my son is also hurting, but he will bounce.  He has family and friends. The girl is emotionally precarious. I'm praying for her

[Gabriel Anast]

What I am going to say here is what I am / will do with my own kids. It does not directly speak to your situation, but you can make the connections. Don't assume that I am saying a certain thing about your situation. I truly believe that you an your husband have the capacity to work it out... better than I can. What follows is how I will direct and instruct my kids, and I think a lot of this is applicable:

Marriage is for life. By this I mean that a spouse must view marriage as a life-long endeavor. This has nothing to do with the other spouse. Although the expectation going in is that the other spouse sees marriage as a life-long endeavor as well, that can change, or may not be the case, and that is not something one can control. The point is that as I instruct my son, for instance, I will tell him that marriage is for life.

One ramification of this is that if at any point he leaves a woman that he married (not her leaving him, but him refusing to provide for her / make place for her) then I will rebuke him. If he does not repent, I will put him away as a son and as a man. In this sense I will instruct him that every marriage is (before me and before God) a shotgun marriage. If you actively put your wife away (not including the case of her leaving you for another) then you have left God, and as such must be put out of the "body..." and that includes me "cutting him off" as a son. Its kind of scary.

Obligation begins at betrothal. OK, so I am not talking about hallucinatory-homeschool-religious-people-betrothal here. I am just talking about Leviticus and Deuteronomy here. Under Mosaic law, if a man betrothed a woman to himself, it was basically just the act of coming to an agreement with her father for her hand in marriage. It included a payment of 30 to 50 days wage (the wage of father at least, but in most cases of the better paid party as I see it) since the daughter was of obvious real value to the father, and an agreement that she should become the woman of the man making the offer of marriage. From this point on, the woman was in the keep of the father, but she was the real obligation and "woman" of the man that had betrothed her.

Before betrothal there was no point in her talking to him or "getting to know him" in any specific way outside of the obvious context of the community. This does not mean that she had no idea of who he was... "arranged marriage terror," etc... it just means that there was no point or place for her to become his woman in any way before a betrothal. As I see it, in the typical case, the woman knew the man that betrothed her and was a very happy party to the proceeding... he was her choice as much as she his. It just simply followed the ideas of headship. Spontaneous-love-of-youth was still the rule regardless of how much Romeo and Juliette type themes lead us to believe the contrary.

As concerns my own children I will instruct them that way as well. I will tell the boys that marriage is for life, so choose wisely... and when you decide who you want, if her father is amenable, and you begin to pursue her... from that point she is your obligation. There may be a limited time where you let her know you, but if, having "seen you" she agrees... and her father agrees... from that point on, she is your woman. It may be a while till the wedding, but there is no turning back on your part.

If he has done this and then decides he does not want her... we are back to divorce, and the idea of a man putting away his wife wrongly. Being at odds with me. He will know this from the time he is twelve or so. It won't be a new thing to him when he begins to need a woman.

The strange woman and the excellent woman. Its weird wording in the KJ... and in all Bibles really, but the "Strange woman" just means a woman that is not yours. A woman that belongs to another man. Not all "strange women" are harlots or on the make... they just are not yours. Don't mess with them. Don't spend hours of your day talking to them. Don't use them for your own purposes. Don't date them. Just say Hi and care for them as you would anything of your neighbor's. If you were married, would you be spending that much time with another woman? No. You would realize that the whole point of getting married was to have a woman of your own with whom you can spend said time, etc. Hand's off, boy, she's not yours.

If a man looses some property of his and you find it, do you keep it? Or do you return it to him? I will teach my sons specifically (but my daughters will hear and be instructed as well) that if a woman offers a man any or all the things that a man needs, it is not his right to take or avail himself of any of it unless she is his. If she is not, leave well enough alone.

Let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband. When it comes time to marry... when you need to marry, good, marry. Sit down, make your decision, and marry. Dad, give your son a job and some space (land, a small house, etc) and help your son to marry. Work him and his new family into their inheritance, whatever it is, and help him build his family.

The typical American / Western way is to work for your dad (go to free school so dad and pad the 401k) until you are 18, get shipped off to college and then to make your OWN way in the world. Inherit after the old man is dead. Yeah, you needed a woman when you were 17, but dad didn't care... it just wouldn't be right... married in high school? How could you ever go to college?

Anyway, I could rant for hours... but... Biblical inheritance is, like marriage, part and parcel with headship. Inheritance is IN the father. The inheritance should be found by the son in his partaking in his father. Dad, do you think the boy needs college? Good. What does he need in order to go to college? Money? A wife? Make a way for him to do this. If you don't think he needs this, then, well, your son may go and do his own thing. You cannot stop him, but you can make a place for him in this life... and more likely than not, he will make his way with you, "in" you if you allow him to. Burn the 401k, invest in your kids. The 401k will guarantee you a nice spot at "Shady Acres" retirement community on the Jersey shore, or somewhere in Florida or maybe Sun City... with a bunch of other crappy old people that for some reason don't have children that are at all involved in their lives. Or you can invest in your kids and have them (and your childrens' children) as your retirement community.

So, maybe you don't have much to offer. That's OK. Offer what you have, and at least try to make a place for your children (sons specifically here, but daughter's as well... as son's in law you can inherit some really cool sons from other careless fathers). He needs to marry young? Make a way for him to do so.

Right now I am starting a small coop business and involving my kids in all respects as much as is possible. Hmmm... they are eight, six and five. I believe that by the time they are 15 they will all be fully capable of starting a business from scratch. I have begun to give them their inheritance now.

--gabe

PS: I do not mean to say by any of this that you have or have not or should have or should not have done whatever... just that as I see it, this is the way the Bible presents it. Look toward it, move toward it, and I think you and your son can work it out better than you thought possible.

[horsemama]

LOTS of good food for thought here.... some random thoughts....:

I am just talking about Leviticus and Deuteronomy here. Under Mosaic law, if a man betrothed a woman to himself, it was basically just the act of coming to an agreement with her father for her hand in marriage. 

Not trying to be argumentative here, because I agree with you in essence, but I have an honest question. How much of the instructions in Lev /Deut were cultural  laws specifically for the Jews? (Like the dietery laws.)

Let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband. When it comes time to marry... when you need to marry, good, marry. Sit down, make your decision, and marry. Dad, give your son a job and some space (land, a small house, etc) and help your son to marry. Work him and his new family into their inheritance, whatever it is, and help him build his family.

The typical American / Western way is to work for your dad (go to free school so dad and pad the 401k) until you are 18, get shipped off to college and then to make your OWN way in the world. Inherit after the old man is dead. Yeah, you needed a woman when you were 17, but dad didn't care... it just wouldn't be right... married in high school? How could you ever go to college?

Maybe this is a whole 'nother can 'o worms  but how many boys are mature enough at 17 or 18 to choose a wife wisely? Or choose a career wisely, for that matter?  I know my son isn't, and we HAVEN'T raised him to be the regular irresponsible teen-type.

Anyway, I could rant for hours... but... Biblical inheritance is, like marriage, part and parcel with headship. Inheritance is IN the father. The inheritance should be found by the son in his partaking in his father. Dad, do you think the boy needs college? Good. What does he need in order to go to college? Money? A wife? Make a way for him to do this. If you don't think he needs this, then, well, your son may go and do his own thing. You cannot stop him, but you can make a place for him in this life... and more likely than not, he will make his way with you, "in" you if you allow him to.

Maybe you could clarify this a bit more for me? (read: rant on!)  I can see there is a fine line between fostering irresponsibility in your kids and helping get them established. There are kids who went into the family business becuase it was easiest, and dad couldn't fire them. 10 or 20 yrs later they find themselves in a dead end and not trained to do anything else. Especially if the car belongs to the company (dad) and the mortgage & electric bill was put thru the company books as a tax claim.....

When dh and I were first married, my in-laws helped us purchase a house, by going in 50% with us. We paid them the going interest rate, it was still a good investment for them, but we would never have been able to come up with the capital without thier help. Around 10 years later, my dad lent dh a large sum of money, which turned his business around. We paid the interest for a few years, then my dad cancelled the debt. That cash-flow boost was a watershed in the business.  Now my parents are getting elderly (in thier 80s), they give us a cash gift a couple of times a year. They say "rather with a warm hand than a cold one!"    But it is GREAT to be able to do some things we couldn't otherwise.

So...... in similar vein...... we bought a farm, which can be sub-divided into enough plots for all our kids to have a home & business here if they wish. My 17 yr old son is working for my husband, taking a "working gap year" to try out various things and decide whether to pursue an academic path or start working. He's working darned hard, for minimum wage!  But it's a constant matter of discernment, to get the balance between helping our young adult kids, and giving them stuff on a plate that they don't value.

a nice spot at "Shady Acres" retirement community on the Jersey shore, or somewhere in Florida or maybe Sun City... with a bunch of other crappy old people that for some reason don't have children that are at all involved in their lives.

PLEASE preserve me from one of these places!  I'd rather die young, really!!   My parents live in one - their choice. They love it, we think it's AWFUL.  So un-natural.... all old people, no kids, no noise.... shudder!!

[milothebean]

I am just talking about Leviticus and Deuteronomy here. Under Mosaic law, if a man betrothed a woman to himself, it was basically just the act of coming to an agreement with her father for her hand in marriage.

Not trying to be argumentative here, because I agree with you in essence, but I have an honest question. How much of the instructions in Lev /Deut were cultural  laws specifically for the Jews? (Like the dietery laws.)

Yes Gabe, this is an interesting question. I have been meaning to ask you for some time, as you seem to have a pretty good understanding on the House of Joseph, you understand that the Torah was not given just to Jews or Judaism, but to the whole commonwealth of Israel (all 12 tribes, even those in dispersion). So, in your opinion, which parts of it apply today? I sense a new thread coming on... :-)

[Gabriel Anast]

LOTS of good food for thought here.... some random thoughts....:

I am just talking about Leviticus and Deuteronomy here. Under Mosaic law, if a man betrothed a woman to himself, it was basically just the act of coming to an agreement with her father for her hand in marriage. 

Not trying to be argumentative here, because I agree with you in essence, but I have an honest question. How much of the instructions in Lev /Deut were cultural  laws specifically for the Jews? (Like the dietery laws.)

Well it was entirely to Israel (the Jews and the other tribes of Israel). My short answer is this: Christ, the Anointed One, was Jewish. He was born "under the law" and perfectly fulfilled it. God calls this righteousness, and all those that are born into Christ (second birth) are called to do the commands of God and of Christ. There is still a distinction between sons of Israel and Gentiles even in the body of Christ in the respect that in some cases the commands differed... as in dietary laws. In dietary laws the commands to Noah differed from the commands to Moses. Otherwise, the commands of God and of Christ to believers are principally in the law as taught and expounded by Jesus.

By this I do not mean to say that your son has to pay 30 days wage to the father of his intended... but that the ideas need to be clear in his mind so that his value of this woman will be accurate and in line with God's value of her. It is a way of helping him make a wise decision.

Let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband. When it comes time to marry... when you need to marry, good, marry. Sit down, make your decision, and marry. Dad, give your son a job and some space (land, a small house, etc) and help your son to marry. Work him and his new family into their inheritance, whatever it is, and help him build his family.

The typical American / Western way is to work for your dad (go to free school so dad and pad the 401k) until you are 18, get shipped off to college and then to make your OWN way in the world. Inherit after the old man is dead. Yeah, you needed a woman when you were 17, but dad didn't care... it just wouldn't be right... married in high school? How could you ever go to college?

Maybe this is a whole 'nother can 'o worms  but how many boys are mature enough at 17 or 18 to choose a wife wisely? Or choose a career wisely, for that matter?  I know my son isn't, and we HAVEN'T raised him to be the regular irresponsible teen-type.

Hahaha... that is a hilarious question, since the answer is probably close enough for generalizing to, "none!"

That's where the wisdom of parents comes in... some take it some don't. Life instructs in either case. In cases where my children seem disinclined to hear my wisdom, I tell him what I think might happen and what my future response(s) will be in that case. In the case of a son looking to marry a girl, I would talk to him plainly about this girl. What the pressures will be and what value she holds. What immaturity she still has and that he will have to deal with it, and what excellence I find in her / her parents, etc. Ultimately the decision is indeed his. At every junction I would try to give him a picture of what might happen... how life might be... so that he has a fairly clear view.

One thing I would add here is that a wife can be a pretty miserable thing (a husband can as well... heh... just focusing on the wife in this case), and as far as I can tell, a man may not divorce her except for the case of her leaving him for another. She can be a "brawling woman" and he may not put her away, etc... ouch.

Proverbs is full (a primary focus) of insight on how to wisely choose a woman. Of course it is aimed at a young man.

Anyway, I could rant for hours... but... Biblical inheritance is, like marriage, part and parcel with headship. Inheritance is IN the father. The inheritance should be found by the son in his partaking in his father. Dad, do you think the boy needs college? Good. What does he need in order to go to college? Money? A wife? Make a way for him to do this. If you don't think he needs this, then, well, your son may go and do his own thing. You cannot stop him, but you can make a place for him in this life... and more likely than not, he will make his way with you, "in" you if you allow him to.

Maybe you could clarify this a bit more for me? (read: rant on!)  I can see there is a fine line between fostering irresponsibility in your kids and helping get them established. There are kids who went into the family business becuase it was easiest, and dad couldn't fire them. 10 or 20 yrs later they find themselves in a dead end and not trained to do anything else. Especially if the car belongs to the company (dad) and the mortgage & electric bill was put thru the company books as a tax claim.....

As I understand the manner that the Bible demonstrates, a father would father his sons (even) until the day he died. Not that a son was bound to his father, but that a father would make place for his son in a similar way to making a place for a wife... but in different context. The son could and commonly would leave (Noah, Abraham, Samson, Elisha, the disciples), but if he stayed, it was in the context that his dad provided. Presumably the first job his dad offered was the lowest job... allowing his son to work his way up. Making sure that his son had skill in every area so that when he eventually did become VP it was reasonable. In any case, his work in his father's house was just like that in any other place... it was commensurate with skill and maturity. The son was not made VP as soon as he got his degree... but he was the inheritor... so there was a balancing of "the son is better than a servant" and, "some servants are better workers than the son."

There are things that can be understood from the examples that are given in scripture. Isaac was still living with and working with / for his father when he was 40. His father had a woman brought for him from his own people (later called Syrians) and eventually Isaac became an incredibly wealthy man (in his own right). As long as Abraham (his father) was alive, his wealth and possessions were his, but they were also in Isaac's hands more and more until his death. Because Isaac stayed in Abraham's house, he was, in that respect "Abraham." The representative of Abraham in the flesh after he died. Although the same might have been said of Abraham's father Terah, it was not the case. Terah's son Nahor basically became the father of Syria... a distinct people group from Israel, Abraham's grandchildren.

So... if the father makes place for his son to be a dependent instead of a man in his own right who will be the effective and generative inheritor, well, that's that father's fault. The father has made the son incapable of inheriting. This is the case (by default) that is spoken about here:

Proverbs 11:29 He that troubleth his own house shall inherit the wind: and the fool [shall be] servant to the wise of heart.

Proverbs 17:2 A wise servant shall have rule over a son that causeth shame, and shall have part of the inheritance among the brethren.

...inversely, here:

Proverbs 29:21 He that delicately bringeth up his servant from a child shall have him become [his] son at the length.

On the other hand I have seen men that compete with their own sons, making slaves out of them if they can. This also is not right as it is the father effectively cutting off his own line. "Eating his own children" as it were. Sacrificing them for profit.

When dh and I were first married, my in-laws helped us purchase a house, by going in 50% with us. We paid them the going interest rate, it was still a good investment for them, but we would never have been able to come up with the capital without their help. Around 10 years later, my dad lent dh a large sum of money, which turned his business around. We paid the interest for a few years, then my dad canceled the debt. That cash-flow boost was a watershed in the business.  Now my parents are getting elderly (in their 80s), they give us a cash gift a couple of times a year. They say "rather with a warm hand than a cold one!"    But it is GREAT to be able to do some things we couldn't otherwise.

Wow, that is so great. That is very close to what I see in the Bible.

So...... in similar vein...... we bought a farm, which can be sub-divided into enough plots for all our kids to have a home & business here if they wish. My 17 yr old son is working for my husband, taking a "working gap year" to try out various things and decide whether to pursue an academic path or start working. He's working darned hard, for minimum wage!  But it's a constant matter of discernment, to get the balance between helping our young adult kids, and giving them stuff on a plate that they don't value.

Yes, and one that you (primarily) as his parents are specifically graced to figure out. Pray like crazy with faith that God will direct you perfectly if you lean on Him. I would suggest making a cooperative (Dad and son together) study of Proverbs a part of his "work." Simply taking the book and making a paraphrase in modern vernacular is an incredibly instructive study. Don't assume anything, and make the paraphrase as raw and un-religious as possible (not to the point of violating the text... but with no fear of violating church / societal dogmas).

Have faith that God will do His perfect work in you, and your love for your son will be effective. It might be (read: probably will) a crazy, unexpected path... but it will be a good one.

--gabe

PS: here are other inheritance stories in the Bible:

Genesis 21 Abraham sent Ishmael away with no inheritance because he mocked Isaac and by implication his father. Nevertheless Ishmael had great blessing as Abraham's son.

Genesis 25 Abraham gave gifts to his other sons, yet sent them away from Isaac and the land that God had promised Abraham through Isaac. Isaac inherited all that was Abraham's.

Deuteronomy 21 The firstborn was to inherit a double portion even if he was not the favored son. The exception (I believe) is a son that  in some way curses or defiles his father / what is his father's (like Ishmael, Reuben of JacobGenesis 35 or Amnon of David 2Sa 13, also Absolom and Adonijah of David). Later, in the law, this son is to be killed (for cursing: Exodus 21:17, Leviticus 20:9) or otherwise exiled (Deuteronomy 27:16-20ish), as I understand it.

1 Kings 19 Elisha, being called by the prophet to be his servant, burned the yoke and "instruments of the oxen" with which he had been plowing in a 12 yoke plow (rich father, son definitely pulling his own... heh), on which fire he boiled the oxen for his "people" (parents / siblings / etc) and in so doing left the house of his parents. Interesting, later (2 Kings 2), he asks of Elijah that when Elijah is taken to God that Elijah give him the "double portion" (inheritance of the first-born). Elijah replies that he will give it ( the inheritance of a first-born) if Elisha is with him at the moment of his departure: "if thou see me [when I am] taken from thee." Elisha is satisfied with this and sticks close to him from then on... thus obtaining the "birthright." This is the perfect picture of the son inheriting "in" his father... even though Elijah is not his birth father.

Luke 15 There is the prodigal son which... although he did not return as a servant to his father, would have been a servant to his brother if he remained in the father's house until the father died... for his father asserted that, "...all that I have is thine..." As long as the father lived he could give of his substance as he desired, however once the father died, all would pass to the son that stayed in his house. If his brother stayed as well, he would become the older brother's servant (6 years, then release with an "open hand" Deuteronomy 15, etc).

Luke 22:28 The apostles inherited great power and position in the kingdom to come by submitting themselves to the same things to which Christ submitted Himself: Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.

[horsemama]

LOTS of good food for thought here.... some random thoughts....:

I am just talking about Leviticus and Deuteronomy here. Under Mosaic law, if a man betrothed a woman to himself, it was basically just the act of coming to an agreement with her father for her hand in marriage. 

Not trying to be argumentative here, because I agree with you in essence, but I have an honest question. How much of the instructions in Lev /Deut were cultural  laws specifically for the Jews? (Like the dietery laws.)

Well it was entirely to Israel (the Jews and the other tribes of Israel). My short answer is this: Christ, the Anointed One, was Jewish. He was born "under the law" and perfectly fulfilled it. God calls this righteousness, and all those that are born into Christ (second birth) are called to do the commands of God and of Christ. There is still a distinction between sons of Israel and Gentiles even in the body of Christ in the respect that in some cases the commands differed... as in dietary laws. In dietary laws the commands to Noah differed from the commands to Moses. Otherwise, the commands of God and of Christ to believers are principally in the law as taught and expounded by Jesus.

By this I do not mean to say that your son has to pay 30 days wage to the father of his intended... but that the ideas need to be clear in his mind so that his value of this woman will be accurate and in line with God's value of her. It is a way of helping him make a wise decision.

OK, that makes a lot of sense. I see you’ve started a new thread.... I’ll go over there and shut up and learn 

Maybe this is a whole 'nother can 'o worms  but how many boys are mature enough at 17 or 18 to choose a wife wisely? Or choose a career wisely, for that matter?  I know my son isn't, and we HAVEN'T raised him to be the regular irresponsible teen-type.

Hahaha... that is a hilarious question, since the answer is probably close enough for generalizing to, "none!"

That's where the wisdom of parents comes in... some take it some don't. Life instructs in either case. In cases where my children seem disinclined to hear my wisdom, I tell him what I think might happen and what my future response(s) will be in that case. In the case of a son looking to marry a girl, I would talk to him plainly about this girl. What the pressures will be and what value she holds. What immaturity she still has and that he will have to deal with it, and what excellence I find in her / her parents, etc. Ultimately the decision is indeed his. At every junction I would try to give him a picture of what might happen... how life might be... so that he has a fairly clear view.

One thing I would add here is that a wife can be a pretty miserable thing (a husband can as well... heh... just focusing on the wife in this case), and as far as I can tell, a man may not divorce her except for the case of her leaving him for another. She can be a "brawling woman" and he may not put her away, etc... ouch.
[/quote]
Exactly. It is for LIFE.    This is not choosing a pickup, or choosing a job, or even a career. All those can be changed. But a spouse is for LIFE. It’s probably the second most major decision any man will make in life.... only after choosing whether to believe in and follow Jesus Christ.  I REALLY struggle to let my 17 yr old loose to make this decision now, ESPECIALLY after he has shown SO little wisdom in his choice of girls up to this point! Aaaaargh.

Anyway, I could rant for hours... but... Biblical inheritance is, like marriage, part and parcel with headship. Inheritance is IN the father. The inheritance should be found by the son in his partaking in his father. Dad, do you think the boy needs college? Good. What does he need in order to go to college? Money? A wife? Make a way for him to do this. If you don't think he needs this, then, well, your son may go and do his own thing. You cannot stop him, but you can make a place for him in this life... and more likely than not, he will make his way with you, "in" you if you allow him to.

Maybe you could clarify this a bit more for me? (read: rant on!)  I can see there is a fine line between fostering irresponsibility in your kids and helping get them established. There are kids who went into the family business becuase it was easiest, and dad couldn't fire them. 10 or 20 yrs later they find themselves in a dead end and not trained to do anything else. Especially if the car belongs to the company (dad) and the mortgage & electric bill was put thru the company books as a tax claim.....

As I understand the manner that the Bible demonstrates, a father would father his sons (even) until the day he died. Not that a son was bound to his father, but that a father would make place for his son in a similar way to making a place for a wife... but in different context. The son could and commonly would leave (Noah, Abraham, Samson, Elisha, the disciples), but if he stayed, it was in the context that his dad provided. Presumably the first job his dad offered was the lowest job... allowing his son to work his way up. Making sure that his son had skill in every area so that when he eventually did become VP it was reasonable. In any case, his work in his father's house was just like that in any other place... it was commensurate with skill and maturity. The son was not made VP as soon as he got his degree... but he was the inheritor... so there was a balancing of "the son is better than a servant" and, "some servants are better workers than the son."

There are things that can be understood from the examples that are given in scripture. Isaac was still living with and working with / for his father when he was 40. His father had a woman brought for him from his own people (later called Syrians) and eventually Isaac became an incredibly wealthy man (in his own right). As long as Abraham (his father) was alive, his wealth and possessions were his, but they were also in Isaac's hands more and more until his death. Because Isaac stayed in Abraham's house, he was, in that respect "Abraham." The representative of Abraham in the flesh after he died. Although the same might have been said of Abraham's father Terah, it was not the case. Terah's son Nahor basically became the father of Syria... a distinct people group from Israel, Abraham's grandchildren.

So... if the father makes place for his son to be a dependent instead of a man in his own right who will be the effective and generative inheritor, well, that's that father's fault. The father has made the son incapable of inheriting. This is the case (by default) that is spoken about here:

Proverbs 11:29 He that troubleth his own house shall inherit the wind: and the fool [shall be] servant to the wise of heart.

Proverbs 17:2 A wise servant shall have rule over a son that causeth shame, and shall have part of the inheritance among the brethren.

...inversely, here:

Proverbs 29:21 He that delicately bringeth up his servant from a child shall have him become [his] son at the length.

On the other hand I have seen men that compete with their own sons, making slaves out of them if they can. This also is not right as it is the father effectively cutting off his own line. "Eating his own children" as it were. Sacrificing them for profit.
[/quote]
How do you factor in Gen 2:24 ..... Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. (Repeated in Matt 19:5)  A married man should be head of his own household. It’s a very delicate thing to have a married man’s father as his boss....... especially if they are both strong personalities. Or even worse, if the father is strong, and the son is weak. He will NEVER learn to stand on his own as a man  :(In our family, my husband and son are both strong personalities. At the moment, while Daniel is still on the bottom rungs of the ladder, so to speak, the pecking order is peaceful. But I can’t forsee that lasting indefinitely. Daniel & his dad would be like 2 bull elephants on the same piece of savannah......  Daniel will have to carve his own niche in his dad’s business, or else start up something of his own, with some help from his dad initially.

Pray like crazy with faith that God will direct you perfectly if you lean on Him. I would suggest making a cooperative (Dad and son together) study of Proverbs a part of his "work." Simply taking the book and making a paraphrase in modern vernacular is an incredibly instructive study. Don't assume anything, and make the paraphrase as raw and un-religious as possible (not to the point of violating the text... but with no fear of violating church / societal dogmas).

Have faith that God will do His perfect work in you, and your love for your son will be effective. It might be (read: probably will) a crazy, unexpected path... but it will be a good one.

--gabe

Excellent idea to do a proverbs study. I will pass it on. And....... did I mention that dh is a Mr. Visionary plus plus -  He has NO fear of rocking any church / societal boats. In fact he likes to see how hard he can rock ‘em, and see that water splashing in over the sides.........
 

[horsemama]

sorry, didn't get the quotes, and quotes-within-quotes on the above post right.

[David Coles]

Just a quick note and personal experience (this is an excellent thread and makes me feel the urgency of the next ten years before I am in this same situation).

I understand the incredible reluctance to allow a young man to make the livelong choice of a wife - but my rhetorical question is: when IS a man "mature" enough to make that decision?  When he's 17?  20? 25? 30? 50?  The truth is, until you've learned the lessons of being married, you'll never understand them well enough to let it guide your selection process...   

I think it's important that we don't underestimate the value of growing together as husband and wife in Christ.  I found my wife (while not looking for one) when I was 19 years old.  I married her at 20 and we had our first child right after I turned 22.  The longer we grow together, the more I look back on myself and thank God that he made my future clear to me in a time when I shouldn't have known better.  As we've matured together (although my wife is a few years older than I am) we've changed so much from who we used to be - I know that's not anything special, I'm sure any of you if you think back to your first few years of marriage would hardly recognize yourselves...

I think there is an aspect of marriage that forces a young man to grow up - and as long as you get the foundation right (Godly woman, the things you find in proverbs), even if the woman needs work, guaranteed the man does too.  It's the commitment that does much of the work, at least for the man.  I would be a lazy self-serving boy-man right now if it weren't for the responsibility that marriage (and children) brought on me... I look at my younger brother (4 years younger) who's still finding his way as a young single.  At his age, I had my third kid on the way, and he's still working three part time jobs... which isn't *wrong*, it's not a sin, etc... I'm not judging him in the least, but I think it's an example of the incredible maturing and motivational force that marriage is.

Granted, we've had our miserable times, but they've mostly been the misery of growth - the hard times in life that force us to rely on God more and toughen us up.  I'm deeply grateful that we've been together for those times - God has matured us in Him together as a husband and wife and not separately.

Anyway... long story short - if you wait around for him to be "mature" enough to choose a wife, you'll never have grandchildren... If God waited until I was "mature" enough to raise children, I'd never have kids.  Granted, I understand that a son is almost certainly  *not* mature enough at 14 or 16, and may not be at 18 or 20, but hopefully you understand what I'm saying... sometimes you can't learn to fly until you've been shoved out of the nest.  Don't set your son up for failure (quite the contrary according to Gabe's presentation of scripture) but there is also (in my experience) a colossal portion of grace from God in this area... I think that, if anything, I'd be praying every day that the woman God has picked out for your son is made known sooner rather than later.  Once he's found and married her, the real struggles begin - but at least they're the struggles of growth as a couple before God.  That's always seemed a bit more productive to me...

Then again, I hear that it's easier if you've got some of the basics of life worked out before you get married, so who knows?  Pray to God and seek his direction; that's pretty much the only advice I've got left to give    I agree with Gabe's assertion that this is something every family not only has to work out for itself, but can do so better than anyone else could ever decide for them... that and I doubt that God will tell me his will for you - just his will for me.

Some short note, eh?  I guess I just want to offer hope... to this day I ask my father-in-law what on earth he was THINKING letting me marry his daughter... but he was right to do it and we're all glad now

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