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Author Topic: Law of Israel - does it apply today? How?  (Read 1671 times)
Gabriel Anast
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« on: March 03, 2010, 02:58:41 PM »

This question comes out of the courtship... what if your teens don't buy it? thread.


I am just talking about Leviticus and Deuteronomy here. Under Mosaic law, if a man betrothed a woman to himself, it was basically just the act of coming to an agreement with her father for her hand in marriage.

Not trying to be argumentative here, because I agree with you in essence, but I have an honest question. How much of the instructions in Lev /Deut were cultural  laws specifically for the Jews? (Like the dietery laws.)

Yes Gabe, this is an interesting question. I have been meaning to ask you for some time, as you seem to have a pretty good understanding on the House of Joseph, you understand that the Torah was not given just to Jews or Judaism, but to the whole commonwealth of Israel (all 12 tribes, even those in dispersion). So, in your opinion, which parts of it apply today? I sense a new thread coming on... :-)

Yes... the question about how the law applies to believing gentiles is also important. Here is the OP, anyway...

--gabe
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Gabriel Anast
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« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2010, 09:56:52 PM »

From PM, slightly off topic:

Quote
Is there a good book or website out there put out by Jews perhaps that could maybe be a Mosaic law for dummies type book.  Sorta like one that would be given to young children to simplify the ideas.  I do not know if it is even appropriate for me to desire one.  It is just that it seems so very complicated and would be nice to have it simplified book by book.

lol... this is great question. Um... if there is one, it probably does not follow God's design for having His word taught. Before the destruction of the 2nd temple, the sons of Levi had the specific task of teaching the law to all the sons of Israel. After the return of Christ, evidently He will teach them the law. Now it is for the elders that are able to teach, and who are "not a novice"... not a babe / not without knowledge of the word.

I started recording stories that I tell my children because they often illustrate the law, the teachings of Jesus, etc... but the first one that I recorded covered the ideas of the cities of refuge, the avenger of blood and the nature of justice under Mosaic law. Since there is no federal government in pure Mosaic law, it sounds a lot like Anarchy... not to mention that it covered the difference between God's appointed vengeance and personal revenge... um... and I just thought, "This is insane, I can't post this on the web or I'll be in Gitmo tomorrow!"

Anyway, heh, I am working on it.

--gabe

« Last Edit: March 03, 2010, 09:58:24 PM by Gabriel Anast » Logged

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AndysDad
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« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2010, 08:55:36 AM »

I'm not going to go into a teaching on it--that's already been done elsewhere. But I will share my understanding of the situation.

God gave the covenant of circumcision--the harbinger of the Mosaic Covenant--to Abraham (Genesis 17:9-14). For thousands of years before that there had been no Law, only God's revelation to Adam (the ancestor of all mankind) and later to Noah (the ancestor of all Flood survivors). Thus what God expected of mankind had to be passed down from father to son or it was lost. Somehow, though, God preserved it in writing so that even if everyone else failed to pass it on, it would still exist. What God gave to Abraham was new, but he said it was for him and his descendants forever. God renewed His covenant with Abraham's son Isaac, and with his son Israel. And the children of Israel perpetuated the covenant of circumcision, even while in slavery in Egypt.

When God gave the law through Moses, it was specifically to the Sons of Israel (Exodus12:3, 20:2). They were commanded to pass it on to their children, and at the same time Moses was commanded to write it down. The Tabernacle cultus was inaugurated to provide a continuation down through the generations of the system God handed down at Sinai. The weekly Sabbath was first mentioned as an enforced day of rest (Exodus 23:12). And the covenant of circumcision given to Abraham was incorporated into the Law (Leviticus 12:3).

To understand how God views the Mosaic Law now, we need only look at its earliest stipulations, both given before Mt. Sinai and the Ten Commandments: Circumcision (Exodus 12:48) and the Sabbath (Exodus 16:22-30).

Circumcision, which far predates the Mosaic Law, was clearly removed as a condition for a right standing with God very early in the Book of Acts, and the whole rest of the New Testament backs that up. Not only is there no need for it, but it could even become a stumbling block. To teach in favor of it was definitely frowned on.

The weekly Sabbath pre-dated Sinai; several more Sabbaths were handed down there. But even in the Old Testament God warned of a time when the weekly, monthly, and annual Sabbaths would be done away with (Hosea 2:11). And once we get to the New Testament, we find no mention of a need to keep any of them. Again, there's a warning against teaching in favor of them (Colossians 2:16).

If Circumcision and the Sabbath--which both preceded the Mosaic Law and were carefully incorporated into it--were considered of no effect other than being a potential stumbling block under the New Covenant, then how much more so the rest of the Law.

The law is a school bus (to paraphrase Paul)--something to get us to the place of education--not an education in itself. It's a great thing, for getting us to school. But not a great thing for schooling itself. Once we reach the school, its benefit ends and it only becomes a potential drag on our education. We don't take it into class with us. It doesn't help us learn anything. In fact, the more time we spend thinking about the school bus, the less benefit school is to us.

Andy'sDad
« Last Edit: March 09, 2010, 10:16:38 AM by AndysDad » Logged

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Gabriel Anast
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« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2010, 07:16:53 PM »

God gave the covenant of circumcision--the harbinger of the Mosaic Covenant--to Abraham (Genesis 17:9-14). For thousands of years before that there had been no Law, only God's revelation to Adam (the ancestor of all mankind) and later to Noah (the ancestor of all Flood survivors).

I am pretty sure that when God told Adam what to do in the garden (and what not to do) it was law. In any case, if it wasn't, God sure got bent out of shape when Adam did what he was told not to do (speaking in jest). I mean... God went right out and killed Adam over it. Oh, and, interestingly, all his descendants. Seems a lot like the other kinds of law that He gave later. Noah had similar laws given him and his children and in Acts, all the apostles assert that the gentiles must still keep that law. Funny.

Quote
What God gave to Abraham was new, but he said it was for him and his descendants forever. God renewed His covenant with Abraham's son Isaac, and with his son Israel. And the children of Israel perpetuated the covenant of circumcision, even while in slavery in Egypt.

Interestingly, so do the descendants of Ishmael to this day.

Quote
When God gave the law through Moses, it was specifically to the Sons of Israel (Exodus12:3, 20:2). They were commanded to pass it on to their children, and at the same time Moses was commanded to write it down. The Tabernacle cultus was inaugurated to provide a continuation down through the generations of the system God handed down at Sinai. The weekly Sabbath was first mentioned as an enforced day of rest (Exodus 23:12). And the covenant of circumcision given to Abraham was incorporated into the Law (Leviticus 12:3).

The tabernacle cultus? By this do you mean obeying the word of God from generation to generation by which the nation of Israel would be able to maintain that which was given them by God... instead of, "And it shall be, if thou do at all forget the LORD thy God, and walk after other gods, and serve them, and worship them, I testify against you this day that ye shall surely perish. As the nations which the LORD destroyeth before your face, so shall ye perish; because ye would not be obedient unto the voice of the LORD your God."

That is not a system of ritual... that is simple obedience.

The covenant was not incorporated... the covenant was apart from the law. What is described in Lev 12:3 is how the inheritors of the covenant should circumcise.

Quote
To understand how God views the Mosaic Law now, we need only look at its earliest stipulations, both given before Mt. Sinai and the Ten Commandments: Circumcision (Exodus 12:48) and the Sabbath (Exodus 16:22-30).

The Sabbath was made for man... a blessing and a reward. The covenant with Abraham was inherited by Jacob specifically and fully, however circumcision was not uniquely inherited by Israel. How this people (Israel specifically) was to understand these was explained in the law.

Quote
Circumcision, which far predates the Mosaic Law, was clearly removed as a condition for a right standing with God very early in the Book of Acts, and the whole rest of the New Testament backs that up.

Not only was circumcision not removed (rather asserted) as a condition of honoring the first covenant for Hebrew believers, it was additionally asserted that gentiles had no need to be circuncised as they were (obviously) not Hebrew and thereby not part of the Abrahamic covenant.

Quote
Not only is there no need for it, but it could even become a stumbling block. To teach in favor of it was definitely frowned on.

Maybe you should link the part where there as Bible teaching on this... I am not finding it in my Bible.

--gabe

PS: I'll answer the remaining statements in a later post... and also teach on the topic from the Bible.
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AndysDad
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« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2010, 09:23:18 AM »

Circumcision, which far predates the Mosaic Law, was clearly removed as a condition for a right standing with God very early in the Book of Acts, and the whole rest of the New Testament backs that up.

Not only was circumcision not removed (rather asserted) as a condition of honoring the first covenant for Hebrew believers, it was additionally asserted that gentiles had no need to be circumcised as they were (obviously) not Hebrew and thereby not part of the Abrahamic covenant.

Quote
Not only is there no need for it, but it could even become a stumbling block. To teach in favor of it was definitely frowned on.

Maybe you should link the part where there as Bible teaching on this... I am not finding it in my Bible.

Okay, let's look at all the occurrences of circumcision in the NT, looking for two things:

1) Is it linked to the Abrahamic covenant, or the Mosaic Law (both, or neither)? We'll mark each reference A, M, B,or N.
2) Is it mentioned in a favorable, neutral, or unfavorable light? We'll mark each reference F, U, or N.

Luke 1:59 And it came to pass, that on the eighth day they came to circumcise the child; and they called him Zacharias, after the name of his father. B/N

Luke 2:21-2 And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called JESUS, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb. And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord; B/N

John 7:22-3 Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers;) and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man. If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day? B/N

Acts 7:8
And he gave him the covenant of circumcision: and so Abraham begat Isaac, and circumcised him the eighth day; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat the twelve patriarchs. A/N

Acts 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. M/F

Acts 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment: M/U

Acts 16:3 Him would Paul have to go forth with him; and took and circumcised him because of the Jews which were in those quarters: for they knew all that his father was a Greek. N/F

Acts 21:21. . . 24 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs. . .   and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law. M/U

Romans 2:25-9
For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law? For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. M/U

Romans 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? N/U

Romans 3:28-31 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.  Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. M/N

Romans 4:9-12
Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. A/N

1 Corinthians 7:18-19 Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised. Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God. N/U

Galatians 2:3 But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised: N/U

Galatians 5:1-4 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.  M/U

Galatians 5:5-7 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love. Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth? M/U

Galatians 5:10-14 I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be. And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased. I would they were even cut off which trouble you. For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.  M/U

Galatians 6:12-15 As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ.  For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh. But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. M/U

Ephesians 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

Philippians 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. N/U

Colossians 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ. N/U

Colossians 3:9-11 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.  N/N

I have marked U wherever Paul preached that either: 1) Circumcision should not be done to a gentile as a requirement for him becoming a Christian; or 2) A prior state of circumcision should not be relied upon by a Jew as a means of finding ongoing favor with God.  There was also one case where Paul was falsely said to preach that Jewish believers should not circumcise.
I have marked F wherever the text shows someone advocating or excusing circumcision of a gentile.

Okay, I need to qualify my statements above, based on these Scriptures. There is no need for circumcision (for Gentile believers); preaching it (the circumcision of Gentile believers) was even frowned upon.

Andy'sDad





« Last Edit: April 28, 2010, 10:33:47 AM by AndysDad » Logged

"The thing that separates the praying Christian from every other person on earth is the fact that he would rather live on his knees than die on his feet"  --Andy'sDad (with apologies to G. Washington)
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Gabriel Anast
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« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2010, 12:13:33 PM »

Wow... its been a long time since I have been here...

Anyway... except for a few "N's" above that I would have marked "F" I think I completely agree with you. If you further go through and mark each passage as pertaining either to gentiles or to Jews... I totally agree. Gentiles don't need it, children of Israel, and Jews specifically do. Not to be saved I think, but in life, it is to honor the first covenant God made with their father Abraham.

It gets complicated with the whole house-of-Joseph assertion that I have made in other places. My thoughts on that are that if you KNOW that you are of Israel... maybe God shows you, maybe you have real Jewish lineage... then it is right to be circumcised.

--gabe
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AndysDad
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My 5th cousin.


« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2010, 06:19:45 PM »

Wow... its been a long time since I have been here...

Anyway... except for a few "N's" above that I would have marked "F" I think I completely agree with you.

The historical mentions were kind of iffy, so I erred on the side of neutrality. If there were a category for "mentioned with apparent but not explicit approval" they'd go in there.

Andy'sDad
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"The thing that separates the praying Christian from every other person on earth is the fact that he would rather live on his knees than die on his feet"  --Andy'sDad (with apologies to G. Washington)
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