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[sassy]

Your husband made a great point, Sarajane.  I hope you all are doing well~I continue to pray for you and your family!
:)Hugs,
Kat

[ForeverGirl]

This post is mostly to sameoldcreature, who has posted in many places on this board recently, asking questions about salvation. But it is also to anyone else who is questioning the means to salvation.

First of all, I ask that the reader take the time to read the Bible studies, personal testimonies, etc... which pertain to this subject. There is A LOT about salvation already on this board.
The posts I am referring to represent a lot of time, study, and prayer by others (like basething's Hebrew study). I am not assuming here that you have not read this thread or others, but, simply requesting that you DO take the time now, if you have not yet done so.

I will write a story now, using the allegory of a man and his wife, to illustrate why someone might doubt their salvation or cast away their salvation. The story is intended to be exaggerated so as to prove a point, but hopefully you will catch my meaning.

The Woman that Would Not Be Married.

There was a woman that loved her man very much, and was very happy to marry him. But, this lady was raised with very little self control, and also had very low self-esteem. These things did not deter the man from marrying her... he was very patient and loving and knew that he could bear her weaknesses, as long as she was willing to grow.

 This woman was not unlike a child, in that she needed to be constantly reminded that she was loved. So, he reminded her frequently. She had good days, in which she did her work,  and on these days she felt better about herself.

One day, shortly after she married her husband, a headache and a whisper of doubt from her mother sent this woman into depression. Instead of remembering the words her husband had said to her that morning "I love you. Please make sure the ____ is done today"... she sat on the couch and cried.

 She imagined him leaving her because she was so emotionally frail. She imagined herself going crazy and being intolerable to live around. She imagined him being angry at her for not doing what she was supposed to do... She imagined many things.

She was far too upset to do much of anything but cry and worry.

Her husband came home. "What's wrong?" He asked in alarm. "I have a headache." She said. "I was afraid you don't love me."

"Why would you think that?" He asked.

"My mother said..."

"Your mother?! Did you hear what I said to you this morning?"

"Yes. OH! You can't love me because I didn't do what you asked! I AM a looser, just like she said!"

The husband tried to talk to his wife, but she was afraid to hear what he had to say.

When he said "I love you" she wondered if he really meant "I would have loved you if you were better."

"When he said "did you do what I asked?" She thought he meant "If you didn't do what I asked, you're not really my wife."

"When he said "stop crying and do the right thing now." She cried harder and insisted that it was too late, that she had messed up too badly, and maybe she had never really been married to him after all.

When he said "Are you listening to me?" She said "Of course! I just don't know what you mean!" and she ran to call her mother.



"Mother, he says he loves me... what does that mean?"

[Insert many different answers of all kinds... Maybe mother might even hit on the right answer; "It means he really loves you."]

"Oh! And he says that I AM married to him, even though I messed up. Am I really?"

[Insert many different answers... mother doesn't actually know since she was in the Bahamas when the whole thing took place...]

So the wife goes back to the kitchen to try to do some work. She mostly avoids her husband because she's afraid of what he might say... he might say some of the terrible things she has imagined...

If he comes near her she starts to tremble and cry and beg for more assurance that she really is loved and married.

She is afraid to get direction from him, or be told what he wants her to do, because what if she fails!? What if she can't do it?! Better to find out from her mother what her husband really wants. That way, if her mother is wrong, then at least it's not between her and her husband.


What can repair this woman's relationship with her husband?

Just this:

To listen, believe, and obey what He says.

If she misunderstands him and messes up, do you think he will be angry at her for misunderstanding, but doing her best to obey what she understood? No, he will simply give her clearer instructions, knowing that she will believe and obey as much as she understands.

If she has a headache and does a sloppy job one day, do you think he will divorce her for being weak? No. He will offer strength to help in time of need.

 If she has a bad temper and disobeys him completely, and then asks for forgiveness and turns to do the right thing... do you think her repentance will be scorned? No. It will be precious, and she will grow.

If she continues to avoid him, and base her relationship on what her mother says, do you think her marriage will last? No. It won't. She will grow hard, and cease to care what he thinks. She will care more and more about what her mother thinks, and avoid her husband altogether. She will cease to know and obey her husband's commands... she will cease to believe he loves her, and that she is married, or even that it matters. She will walk away and later lament that it just didn't work out. It was too hard. It was His fault. He didn't make it clear. He didn't love her enough. He was mean...



Find your "husband" Christ. Listen to what he says. Take ANY book of the Bible and notice how many times the reader is told to "Listen, Heed, Hear, etc..." How can you please the One you don't listen to, believe, and obey? You cannot. This is faith.

Read the book of John, and listen to His words. Believe what He says... Obey him. Be content to be married to him. Turn away from your fear and your disbelief. No one else can make you more or less married to this Christ... it's between you and Him.


love,

Rebekah Anast

[BrandNewCreature]

Oh, Rebekah, thank you for saying it that way.  It made me cry and it made sense. 

Yes, I have questioned (questioning) whether the marriage even took place (because "mother" is not sure it did, like you said, she was in the Bahamas when it took place).

Rebekah, you and uptrapperdansgirl... have given me hope and courage to get back up.

[BrandNewCreature]

Last night as I thought more about this analogy, it occurred to me that I could not hear my "husband" because I was listening to all the "mothers" in my life.   One "mother" in particular would tell me that God leaves us when we are sinning, that the Holy Spirit does not stick around.  And of course, after sinning, I would feel so far away from God, so I just knew that this "mother" must be correct.  But, that is not true, is it?  I am the one that withdraws when I sin.  I am the one that thinks God hates me.  But, He does not.  I do not know how He could even consider loving me, a vile sinner!  But I suppose I need to stop questioning His love.   I must continue reading my Bible.  I also must stop listening to "mother".  Please continue to pray for me, as I am still struggling.

[Gabriel Anast]

(oops, lol, this is Beka)

That's awesome. 

 This - what you have expressed - is faith. It is choosing to listen to Him above all others. We WILL continue to pray, as are many others on this board. If you choose to continue in this faith, you will grow. I can tell you, from sweet experience, that He is so good, so satisfying, so forgiving and patient!

Consider these verses:
Psa 119:9      BETH. Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed [thereto] according to thy word.

Mat 17:5     While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

Luk 11:28      But he said, Yea rather, blessed [are] they that hear the word of God, and keep it.


Tis so sweet to trust in Jesus,
Just to take Him at His word,
Just to rest upon His promise
Just to know, "Thus saith the LORD."

Jesus, Jesus, how I love Him!
How I've proved Him o'er and o'er
Jesus, Jesus! Precious Jesus!
Oh, for grace to trust Him more!

love,
Beka

[chiquis]

Is it possible to never be able to be saved?

[ridgerunner]

Is it possible to never be able to be saved?

Do you mean to be someone that God cannot save, or someone who won't call out for God's grace?

[chiquis]

I mean someone who had the chance to get saved, and didn't.

[denim&lace]

Oh my... I  don't think so.  I mean, all those kids and teenagers that grow up in church and have thousands of opportunities to believe... but they don't until... well... until they do!   (that would be me)

First, I had to learn that getting saved wasn't walking down an aisle and repeating a prayer that has no meaning whatsoever to the person repeating it...

then I had to learn that I am not enough.  not strong enough, not smart enough, not good enough... just not enough on my own.  I couldn't be enough to be saved...

then I had to realize that God doesn't withdraw his salvation every time I messed up.  I didn't know that he was big enough to forgive, not only what I had done, but what I will do and even what I THOUGHT about doing!!!

And then...  I had to come to a place of believing.  Of truly believing that God sent his Son Jesus to die in my place.  That He came as a baby, born to a virgin in a barn, that He grew up learning to build things alongside the man who helped raise Him, that He lived a sinless life and then that He died a horrible gruesome death to pay the death tax for my sin.  That He was beaten and mocked and spit on... for me.  That He went to hell in MY PLACE, and then He rose again to life.

It took more for me to come to this belief than it does many.  I knew the stories from being raised in church.  I had heard all the teachings and I could quote scripture.  But I didn't really believe...  and then one day circumstances led me to see truth and believe it. 

Then I was saved. 

I'm so glad that all those missed opportunities to be 'saved' didn't keep me from salvation.  Praise Jesus!  Praise Jesus!  Praise Jesus!  He saves even ME!

[andiclare]

I mean someone who had the chance to get saved, and didn't.

Well, I'd have to say yeah. There are some people who are not saved, right?  Because Hell exists. As I see it the  conclusions are either: a.) these people never have a chance to be saved or b.) these people have a chance like everyone, but in the end they choose otherwise.

[denim&lace]

I mean someone who had the chance to get saved, and didn't.

Well, I'd have to say yeah. There are some people who are not saved, right? Hell does exist. As I see it the  conclusions are either: a.) these people never have a chance to be saved or b.) these people have a chance like everyone, but in the end they choose otherwise.

OK.  I took this as...

Is it possible for somebody to never be able to be saved because they once had the opportunity to be saved and didn't?

[chiquis]

Ok i will try to be more specific. Me and my  dh were told the plan of salvation together by american missionaries, i raised my hand at the invitation time just becuse my dh did, we both said that "we understood english" but i really didn't my dh both spoke and talked perfect englicsh i just knew a few words. trough the whole explanation my husband translated some scripture and what the missionary was saying, but i was not really paying attention, i understood that i was a sinner and that hell was the price  for it, and we needed to ask Jesus to forgive us. so i followed with the prayer. (really, i dont remember what i prayed because all was english) so after the service, i grabed i pamphlet, took it home just to read it( i guess also because i wanted to know about the beliefs of that  i was catholic and all was just knew to me, and also to just read) Next day after work i was alone home, read the pamplet and tried to understand what i was reading, i remember being scared and not wanting to go to hell and feeling guilty of my sin( remembering the horrible things i had done in he past) said the prayer hoping God was lisenting to me. When i finished a few seconds later my husband came also from work and i kept hat  had done to myself, i meant it i am just confused. Several years have passed and i am still sometimes wondering if i 'm really saved or not. Why my heart is still so cold.

[denim&lace]

chiquis, I want to assure you that you are 'save-able'.  You are not beyond God's reach. 

This man, a teacher that I respect very much, can tell you more...  His name is Michael Pearl and he has teachings available at the following link that may help you...

The title of this teaching is 'Am I Saved?'
http://www.nogreaterjoy.org/podcasts/old-audio/am-i-saved/

Another of his teachings that really spurred me toward salvation is his study on Romans:
http://www.nogreaterjoy.org/podcasts/old-audio/romans-audio/

I am guessing that you have a better grasp on English today than you did when your journey began...  It appears from your post that you are quite fluent!  I'm sorry that these teachings are not available in your first language.  I am praying for you. 

[andiclare]

I mean someone who had the chance to get saved, and didn't.

Well, I'd have to say yeah. There are some people who are not saved, right? Hell does exist. As I see it the  conclusions are either: a.) these people never have a chance to be saved or b.) these people have a chance like everyone, but in the end they choose otherwise.

OK.  I took this as...

Is it possible for somebody to never be able to be saved because they once had the opportunity to be saved and didn't?

Ohhh...ok, I see. I misunderstood the question.  If that's what she meant, then I'll change my reply. I don't know anywhere in the Bible where we're told we only have one chance, or a certain amount of chances. I believe that as long as you have breath in you it's possible that you can turn to God. 

[MommaK]

This thread is my favorite of all on 7xS!
I'll re-post something Beka wrote in the very beginning.


Faith is not confidence in your belief
Faith did not roll away the stone
Nor will it see you safely Home
But Him in whom you have believed.

Faith is not quantity nor quality belief
It matters not how "strong" your faith
For your belief is nothing great
It's irrelevant in any case -
But rather, in whom have you believed?

1) Salvation is something Jesus did.

2) To be saved you must believe that Jesus, the Son of God, lived a sinless life, died in your place, and rose again.

3) To "believe" is to reckon what you've heard to be true. It is not a feeling, or a convincing of yourself. You either believe it's true, or you don't believe it's true.

Salvation doesn't happen to you when you believe enough - it is provided for those who do believe, as they believe it. The focus is not on the quality or quantity of your faith, but rather on Jesus - do you believe Him or not?

4) When doubts come, they are from Satan, to whom you have given place by believing his lies. If you choose to believe Jesus died for you, and that His death is sufficient payment for your sins, then tell the Devil to go where Jesus sends him, because you choose to believe that what Jesus did for you is enough - whether your faith is big enough or not is not an issue - Jesus is big enough. He saves. He can keep the weakest, most doubting person saved, if all that they believe is that He can - He can, and will.

You cannot have assurance of a salvation based upon your own faith or Christian life, because you are not sufficient. Jesus work of salvation:  death, burial and resurrection - is the ONLY THING THAT CAN PLEASE GOD. Rest in His work - He's done it all. There's nothing left but rest.

Love,
Rebekah

[MommaK]

Oh! And here is another question and answer on YouTube.

Question: I know what scripture says about Jesus. I believe he bore my sins, died, and rose again. Sometimes I feel very secure in my salvation, but other times I am quaking in fear of eternity because I'm not sure I'm saved. What gives?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5ffrscRfSY&feature=player_profilepage#t=20

[andiclare]

Oh! And here is another question and answer on YouTube.

Question: I know what scripture says about Jesus. I believe he bore my sins, died, and rose again. Sometimes I feel very secure in my salvation, but other times I am quaking in fear of eternity because I'm not sure I'm saved. What gives?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5ffrscRfSY&feature=player_profilepage#t=20

Great video, thanks for the link! I like how pure and simple his definition of faith is.

[MommaK]

This is a question from a PM here http://www.7xsunday.net/forum/index.php/topic,25518.msg242796.html#new

I was just reading the thread on communion and I am feeling now (and have been quite a bit lately, truthfully), that maybe I don't stand a chance. I mean, we don't attend a church, I don't really have any believing friends (not that I would really term believing, I guess), and my DH is not a believer, I don't know about communion except the generic "repeat after me" stuff we did in church when I was young, I have been baptized several times when trying to figure everything out back in the day, but know nothing about what we are really supposed to be doing. In general, I feel like an idiot when it comes to all this. I read the Bible and try to understand. I try to obey God and thank Him and pray to Him a good part of each day. But is that enough? I don't get all this in-depth stuff like law, customs and traditions, etc...which things we are supposed to do and which we aren't. I feel suddenly like God thinks I am a joke and I feel very hopeless. I really don't want to fail at this, but I feel like I don't even know where to start anymore, let alone what to teach my children. Please advise if you have the time.

I remember feeling just as you did. I was reading the bible, searching, and desperately wanting to please God. I read that Jesus commanded us to do 2 things: Love God above all else, and love your neighbor. I searched and searched for the rest of that "list". I SOOO wanted to do just right. But I just never could find a list......... Troubling for an analytical personality. 

And as a child I was told "You must love God and put Jesus in your heart". I struggled with that also,  thinking "How do I love God? How do I love someone I don't even know."

Then one day I read a friend describing their husband..... she said "He's crazy about Jesus."
I cried out to God knowing I didn't understand that concept. I really wanted to, I just didn't understand. I knew I was lost.

Then, suddenly I decided to "give it all to God". I think everyone goes about this differently... but I knew I couldn't love God enough, or do good enough, or ever find that list (even if I could keep it perfectly).... I KNEW I could never be pleasing enough on my own.... to save my own soul..... or to "make it".

So, I told God that if He wanted me to understand all this - he would just have to give it to me, cuz I couldn't do it on my own........ SUDDENLY I understood that I had no hope outside of Christ. That the only hope I had of heaven was that Jesus was sent to live a perfect and sinless life, to become sin (to have sin placed on him), to die on a cross, and pay for all of my wrongs - free and clear - a gift.  I also knew there was no other way to please God - except by going through the blood shed by Jesus.

I'm so thankful today that I am free to share my story with YOU - and that Jesus paid it all.

I need no other argument,
I need no other plea,
It is enough that Jesus died,
And that He died for me.

Enough for me that Jesus saves,
This ends my fear and doubt;
A sinful soul I come to Him,
He'll never cast me out.

I need no other argument,
I need no other plea,
It is enough that Jesus died,
And that He died for me.

My heart is leaning on the Word,
The written Word of God,
Salvation by my Savior's name,
Salvation through His blood.

I need no other argument,
I need no other plea,
It is enough that Jesus died,
And that He died for me.

[mammame]

Rebeka,

Thank you for that post on the wife/husband. It was really meaningful to me

[Gabriel Anast]

When / how were you baptized, and (at risk of sounding Pentecostal) have you asked specifically to receive the Holy Spirit and His gifts? 

I have met a lot of people that I believe really are believers (maybe immature, but believers in deed). Probably I would agree with you that you were indeed a believer for 30 years... yet have no manifestation of the Spirit of God in their life.

In many "churches" the gifts of the Spirit are taught against, in other cases the gifts of the Spirit are feared or otherwise disregarded as "not for our time," in still others, sin is taught and encouraged such that the Spirit is completely quenched.

In my opinion its not enough to ask just once for the gifts (not all, but as God gives and leads)... but to persist in asking and to persist in growing in faith that you might more perfectly use / manifest the gifts and His Spirit in you.

I think this is what you are asking for. If you have specific questions about this answer, would you mind posting the Q's in the Bible Discussion board?

--gabe

[Beth]

I thought I might sort of give my testimony here and what I have often observed in others... I hope its helpful.
I was living in great sin when I got saved. I knew the right way I had been taught it all of my childhood. But I chose to walk away from the Lord and live my own selfish way. Like the prodigal son I woke up one day and realized I was eating with the pigs and I wanted to go home. So, I began that journey home. But you know I didn't get there in a day. The road was long and I was weak from malnourishment.  I kept going and God met me on that road and helped me find my way back. It was hard though... I wasn't just suddenly home and everything was better... life was not perfect, and neither was I. It has taken me many years to get this far and I still have a journey in front of me. We all do.
I believe that's what Gabe is saying in the bible discussion. That salvation is a journey that takes us one step at a time. Yes, there is a point we decide to follow Christ, but it doesn't end there, in sudden perfection... Many people do have great victories at this point, but I still think they have a road to walk in front of them. Things to learn, tests of faith, repentance from new mistakes (sin), and overcoming of deeply held belief systems.
In my experience and from what I have observed in christians around me that is not a one time occurrence, that "boom" its done,  I'm saved,  life is good. I still had so much to learn after I got saved, life was not necessarily so good. But the difference was, I was on the right road, headed home and He was walking beside me. Old habits die hard, sometimes, we just don't know any better... but if we're willing we can learn better. If I could recommend a book besides the bible to help explain your journey... Read the Pilgrims Progress. Great analogy. http://www.amazon.com/Pilgrims-Progress-Oxford-Worlds-Classics/dp/0192834002
HTH, Beth

p.s. I copied the bible discussion off and we read it this morning... really good.

[Beth]

sounds like maybe your wallowing in the slough of despond... read the Pilgrims Progress to find out what I mean by that. You can download a free audio here
http://www.freechristianaudiobooks.com/    Don't give up... Satan uses our own doubts against us all the time. You can know you are saved. But just because you don't feel that assurance right now, doesn't mean you aren't already saved.  I know many people who have come out of the amish (who say you can not know you are saved) who struggle with assurance because of what they have been taught. Keep walking, He's already with you, when we seek Him, He is there. Keep praying for faith to believe that! Praying for you...

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