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Author Topic: The Talmud & Kaballah  (Read 2060 times)
Journeyman
I want to armwrestle Mike Pearl.
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« on: December 27, 2006, 11:55:03 AM »
Quoted from this post: http://www.7xsunday.net/forum/index.php/topic,535.0.html

Quote
[The pronunciation of the Name of God]has been one of many long debated issues even among some Jews, especially in traditions like Kaballah. The text of the Old Testament does not include vowels, and as such, it is difficult to know how the text was intended to be pronounced. This seems like a problem that doesn't really matter in English, but in Hebrew where much of the sound of the language is based on common vowel sequences, it is a much more provoking discussion since the very sound of a word evokes context in Hebrew... English is not like this at all really. Here is a bit more info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_God_in_Judaism

The Talmud and the cabala are not true Jewish teachings.  Meaning, it is not the Christian's Old testament that we read.  The Talmud and Cabala are ancient mystical teachings stemming from Babylonian worship.  They are a form of "white magic" and it is also in line with occultic gnosticism. 
Babylon was the place where all witchcraft and false religion stems today.  It was also the religion of the "Pharisees" in the Bible.  No wonder Jesus despised their religion so much. I feel that God is not honored nor impressed with certain ways of "spelling or saying" his name when these books do not honor Him at all. 
« Last Edit: December 28, 2006, 10:28:34 PM by g-admin » Logged
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Gabriel Anast
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« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2006, 10:51:24 PM »
Let me say one more thing as well. I have no doubt that the texts in the Talmud and the Jewish Encyclopedia are indeed correct, and that there probably were Rabbis that taught that certain forms of sexual perversion were permissible under Judaic law... and that it is very likely that these texts have been preserved to this day.

Once while Rebekah, my wife, as in Israel, she was propositioned by a Hassidic Jew, side curls, black outfit, the whole nine yards... a man following strict Talmudic form to be certain. She was amazed, asked for him to clarify, which he did. Incensed, she went to a group of three of four other Hassidic men who were standing nearby and she told them what the man had proposed. They were non-plussed and stated that it is not a sin for him to have sex with a gentile. This was a group of men from one of the strictest sects in Israel.

Witness Judges 19-21, Isaiah 57... there are a few others that escape me at the moment.

I will maintain that the Ted Pike guy is a mess, but that your point that the Talmud is no source for spiritual inspiration I will not dispute.

The reason I brought up the Talmud and the Kaballah in the first place was to point out that no one... even those with all the historical evidence at their finger tips, can figure out how Moses (or Abraham) heard the Name of God.

--gabe
« Last Edit: December 28, 2006, 10:54:11 PM by g-admin » Logged
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Journeyman
I want to armwrestle Mike Pearl.
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« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2006, 01:17:18 PM »
Quote
[Editor's note, this quote was originally by Gabriel Anast in this thread... but has now been moved here]The Kaballah is considered by some to be like astrology in the western tradition, however it is much more complex and although many westerners use it like astrology, I would say that it is much more like the Bible Code, or possibly like Sacred Geometry than like western astrology. There is no doubt that most involved in Kaballah are interested primarily in the paranormal / divination aspects. [edit, text added] When I mentioned Kaballah, I meant to show how the Sacred Names movement has taken an aspect of Kaballah and made it a central teaching. Kaballah is huge in scope, and there are aspects (like trying to discover the proper pronunciation of the Name of God) that are completely in opposition to the simple truths that have been made plain to us through the texts of the Bible.

The Talmud on the other hand is not the Old Testament, but it is another body of texts. It is not a philosophy like Kaballah, it is a set of teachings. Many respected rabbis over a period of maybe 600 years after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD commented on the text of what we call the old testament, and this commentary is called the Talmud and the Mishna. Unlike protestant commentaries on the Bible, these were mostly legal commentaries.

The Talmud is not (in my opinion) relevant for the believer in Jesus Christ, but it can be extremely useful in understanding how a certain text presents itself in the Jewish perspective. Because the Bible was given to the Jews, it is very important to consider the Jewish perspective. I personally believe, however, that all that God said to humanity through the Jews is contained in the canonized  Bible.


I, too, give information out of research and not of opinion.  But I do state my opinions.  Grin
The Talmud is not just a bunch of texts, but rules that even Ancient Babylonions wanted nothing to do with for they were too wicked.  Check out this link to read some of what the Talmud "scriptures" speak of:
http://spl.haxial.net/religion/violence/#JEWISH

Also, here is a google video that is very interesting on the Talmud:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6657600254881054584&q=ted+pike&hl=en

I know that is seems as if I have stemmed from the original question, and I apologize, but feel that this information on the Cabala and Talmud are important when understanding the religious man-made convictions on "names of God".
Your link on the sacred names movement is very interesting, too.  Thanks!
« Last Edit: December 28, 2006, 10:33:59 PM by g-admin » Logged
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Gabriel Anast
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« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2006, 03:52:23 PM »
Quote
The Talmud is not just a bunch of texts, but rules that even Ancient Babylonions wanted nothing to do with for they were too wicked.  Check out this link to read some of what the Talmud "scriptures" speak of:
http://spl.haxial.net/religion/violence/#JEWISH

The Talmud was not written until after 70AD (which I mention above) which was about 400 years after the destruction of Babylon. Although the Jews call it the Babylonian Talmud, Babylon as it is commonly referred to in modern times was long gone by the time the Jews moved to that region.

As far as the anti-semitic site that is referred to above, it is (naturally) badly mis-translated, has taken texts out of context, and applies non-Jewish interpretations. This is not to say that the Talmud is the Word of God... just that it must be taken as it is... a system of Pharasaic laws and opinions that comment on the Old Testament. I see it as simply a historic document (good/bad/ugly) that can be used to understand a Jewish perspective of the texts of the Bible. It also contains a lot of history indirectly.

The abridged text of the Talmud can be found translated here: http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/talmud.htm for those wishing to study it for themselves. I would personally not recommend it, but it is not an evil document... it is a human document, it is a set of interpretations and laws that generally extract from Pharisaical dogma.

I personally found the video that is linked to be grasping and based largely on myth. It reminds me of the Da Vinci Code in its ability to follow a trail in history. Although the Jews certainly have their share of faults, this video basically attributes all the political, moral and social failings of the last 1500 years on the Jewish people.

It is of greatest importance that people... that's you and me, begin to think for ourselves, research for ourselves, and read for ourselves. Is there an overarching Jewish world conspiracy? Unlikely, but it is possible. If it exists, it is identifiable, and probably prophesied in scripture. If it does exist it does not need conspiracy theory and radicalism to point it out. It requires a rational, even approach.

One of the most interesting things I observed about Ted Pike is that he blames almost as much evil on Calvinists as Jews... I am not a Calvinist, however the people that allow Calvinism, or any philosophy that is wrong or counter to the Bible, are the the people that don't care about or read the Bible.

Overthrowing all the "bad people" only makes you one of them. The Bible says, "Commit thy works unto the LORD, and thy thoughts shall be established. " In another place it says, "Trust in the LORD, and do good; so shalt thou dwell in the land, and verily thou shalt be fed. Delight thyself also in the LORD; and he shall give thee the desires of thine heart. Commit thy way unto the LORD; trust also in him; and he shall bring it to pass. And he shall bring forth thy righteousness as the light, and thy judgment as the noonday." I another place it says, "Let not mercy and truth forsake thee: bind them about thy neck; write them upon the table of thine heart: So shalt thou find favour and good understanding in the sight of God and man. Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil."

As far as Calvin goes, he too wrote a lot. His documents, and the Synod (was there more than one?) that he was part of are useful for historical purposes if for nothing else... just like the Talmud.

--gabe
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Journeyman
I want to armwrestle Mike Pearl.
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« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2006, 08:16:40 PM »
Whoa!  Sorry, Gabe.  I didn't mean the above article or video to sound antisemitic, or to mislead people into world dominating Jewish conspiracy theory.  It was simply put out there to show one of many sides of false religions in the world today. 
I am not antisemitic, nor in my reading/viewing/ of Ted Pike's videos do I think he is, too.  Ted Pike clearly made it known in the video that "the Jewish people involved in the false religion of Judaism need Jesus Christ to be their personal Lord and Saviour."  I also agree.
Just like when someone would read a part  of the Koran through the eyes of a Muslim or a Christan the evilness of the false religion is quite relevent.  No matter how one reads the Talmud(for historical purposes or for religion) it clearly has no respect for our Lord, for Christians, and for non-Jews. 
Within the video, I do not recall Ted Pike ever bringing up the wonderful side of Judaism.  In my belief, it is because Christians try not to glorify false religions. As for the movie being like "The Da Vinci Code", I never saw the movie. In my opinion, it is wrong to attempt to blame the whole world's problems on the Jewish people.  Jewish people are not wicked and evil.  They are folks just like me and you. Some Jewish people are born-again Christians just like us, and some Jewish people are indifferent.  Some follow the beliefs outlined in the Talmud. 
As for Calvinistic views, I disagree with all Calvinistic views and would hope all on this site would, too.  I just felt it would be a fine idea to give the people of this forum a site and a video that is a quick overview of Judaism(Talmud). 
I also believe that people need to research more on their own and not just take one man's opinion/teaching as gospel.  I cannot see a problem with a mature Christian, who has a pure heart, seeing the site or the video.  My advice would be not to take everything to heart, but to use it as a basis for further study.  At the least, I hope to peak interest in our Lord and our Bible.  I sincerely hope to help equip the fellow saints with knowledge of other false religions not so commonly spoken of. 
If anyone believes that I am out of line or have "hidden agendas", feel free to contact me.
Personal email me and I will give you my phone number.  Take Care,
Journeyman
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Gabriel Anast
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« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2007, 01:15:39 PM »
Journeyman: I do believe that there is a growing hatred of the Jews, that Ted Pike is amazingly inflammatory, and that the sites linked are in fact anti-semitic... that in no way reflects on my opinion of you.

I have had a lot of experience on religious forums, and there is nothing in the world more factious and destructive than the regular brand of religious debate on the internet. My guess is that you probably got these links from a friend, and watched the video / read the links without understanding what I believe is a current thrust to educate "Evangelicals"  in anti-semitism... I realize that you are not this way. The links you quoted were clever... they didn't contain the regular Protocols of Zion references, etc. In other words, those links are designed to draw unsuspecting "evangelicals" into the current anti-semitism.

This is all my opinion, and I haven't taken the time here to refer to other sites and ideologies. However, if you need other references, ask, and I'll try to more completely present the context.

Anyway, I am not upset with you, just with the links. I don't want the links to go away, I need for them to be understood for what they are.

I don't think you are anti-semitic. As much as I know you from this forum, I see you as a brother in Christ, and everything you have posted has been great. Open discussion about the Kaballah and the Talmud is good. That you did not think of the links as anti-semitic is completely reasonable... they were designed to appear "honest" and representative of all the facts.

That you might have taken this whole thing wrong I completely understand: I am to blame for not saying all that I have said here.

Thanks for your activity here.  Your input is needed.

--gabe
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Beth
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~Charity never fails~
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2008, 04:31:44 AM »
 this appears to be an older thread, but I was wondering if anyone could please explain exactly what kaballah is. From what I read on the internet it would seem to be a sect of the jewish religion having to do with mysticism or "white" magic. Is this true. Someone I know may be involved in it. I am trying to gird my loins with truth here! Anybody know anything?  Thanks.
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                                            1 Corinthians 13
floydian
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« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2008, 09:32:01 AM »
Quote
Calvinism, or any philosophy that is wrong or counter to the Bible, are the the people that don't care about or read the Bible.

Gabe,

I appreciate yalls ministry so much.  Please don't take offense.

I know many, many Calvinists who live around me.  Most are very involved in PCA churches here in the South.  They are evangelical Bible believing Christians who love scripture and love the Lord.

I believe that they are mistaken in their doctrine, don't get me wrong.  However, they do love scripture, they memorize it, quote it, study it.  Their lives are a testimony to all around them.  One is a doctor who does his best to lead every patient in his practice to the Lord.  He is THE most evangelistic man I've met.  I'd swear he could lead a fence post to the Lord.   Cheesy 

Again, I don't agree with their doctrine, but they do love scripture.   They just somehow come up with a different idea about scripture when they study it. Undecided
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Beth
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~Charity never fails~
« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2008, 04:09:32 AM »
   I have re-read this thread and I am somewhat confused. From what I can read on the internet and from what I know in person Kaballah is jewish mysticism and to at least some degree "white" magic is involved. It can also be christianized as in christian kaballah. But does saying that make me anti-sematic. From what I know of the Talmud it is not scripture and does teach some things that are wrong. Does saying that and knowing that make me anti-sematic?
  I have someone close to me that got involved in the messianic movement years ago and eventually left Christ and "converted" to orthodox judaism. One of the children has come back to the faith years later...but with a lot of baggage. I believe they were also studying kaballah which is perfectly acceptable by orthodox jews. If kaballah is really what it appears to be would that not make it occultish??  How are ultra conservative orthodox jews lining a form of witchcraft up with old testament scripture? I really am confused and troubled by this.  HELP!??
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~Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.~
                                            1 Corinthians 13
amy3js
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Posts: 1557
« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2009, 02:28:51 PM »
Quote from: Beth on November 09, 2008, 04:09:32 AM
   I have re-read this thread and I am somewhat confused. From what I can read on the internet and from what I know in person Kaballah is jewish mysticism and to at least some degree "white" magic is involved. It can also be christianized as in christian kaballah. But does saying that make me anti-sematic. From what I know of the Talmud it is not scripture and does teach some things that are wrong. Does saying that and knowing that make me anti-sematic?
  I have someone close to me that got involved in the messianic movement years ago and eventually left Christ and "converted" to orthodox judaism. One of the children has come back to the faith years later...but with a lot of baggage. I believe they were also studying kaballah which is perfectly acceptable by orthodox jews. If kaballah is really what it appears to be would that not make it occultish??  How are ultra conservative orthodox jews lining a form of witchcraft up with old testament scripture? I really am confused and troubled by this.  HELP!??

Kaballah is really difficult to fully understand without doing a lot of study, and I personally stay away from that because it is so...weird.  From what I can tell there are also a lot of different ways people "practice" kaballah. I know in its origins it was a part of judaism that only men of a certain age group could take part in. And now we see people like Madonna claiming to practice it. I think it is just one of the ever changing rabbit trails that judaism has taken since they now rely on the Talmud for their truth instead of the scriptures. Anyway, here is a link to the wikipedia article on it which gives some info, but I don't think it gives the "full story" either.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaballah
« Last Edit: March 06, 2009, 02:34:58 PM by amy3js » Logged
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